You go first Mr President!

[Borg Refinery]

I love the quote about it being a "unique technology"



Roger Coghill was pushing this a long time ago, and the "technology" is a century old.

Hehe fair enough. Well you know, yanks invented everything including democracy before the greeks so..

[johnofgwent]

Supposedly, research is underway to get around this; some of the Trump supporting yanks I talk to on another forum posted this -







https://apnews.com/b44f4531071e6204023f7b8e16f59d4b">https://apnews.com/b44f4531071e6204023f7b8e16f59d4b



If it wasn't for greedy and corrupt big pharma co's and the politicization of science, and as you say, the old boys' network crap..I bet a solution could be found within 4 months.

I love the quote about it being a "unique technology"



Roger Coghill was pushing this a long time ago, and the "technology" is a century old.

[Borg Refinery]

Well, I looked into that. There are of course various problems. In my youth they did an experiment in school, and repeated it in university, where they filled a fairly transparent balloon with a mix of hydrogen and chlorine gas, then held it (on a stick) next to strong UV light source and for good measure put a piece of wet litmus paper nest to the balloon before turning on the light



If you have done this you know already, there is a godawful bang and the litmus paper turns bright red. The UV light excites the hydrogen and chlorine molecules so hard the gasses both dissociate into H+ and Cl- ions and next thing you know there's a cloud of a few million atoms of conc hydrochloric acid where the balloon was, and a bloody big bang because that's a fairly exothermic reaction.



Yes indeed, there are negative consequences, and they might be serious. The UV light might, if you are the unluckiest sod on the planet, damage your white blood cells to the point you actually risk lukaemia in a few years time. But at a time of near-death exposure to massive cell -lysing infection, lukaemia in five or ten years time is hardly an issue to someone that will be dead in five to ten days is it.



The other thing is, your liver and kidney's day job is disposal of that detritus, and this virus is insidious in attacking those organs and preventing that disposal...



The written handout for the tetracycline antibiotics I am now taking twice daily because the cellulitis infection in my leg has NOT been totally seen off by either of the previous two antibiotics says starkly "this medication is not suitable for prescription to children under 10 years owing to the staining of teeth and bones and chemical weakening of their structure which may cause issues in later life. A clinician whose patient faces life changing or life threatening infection may however weigh these possibilities as lessor to the consequences of non-administration of this medication"  unquote.



If I were about to be put on a ventilator, I would be screaming what was left of my lungs out to put me on the above if only to be the guinea pig....

Supposedly, research is underway to get around this; some of the Trump supporting yanks I talk to on another forum posted this -

"Our team has shown that administering a specific spectrum of UV-A light can eradicate viruses in infected human cells (including coronavirus) and bacteria in the area while preserving healthy cells," stated Dr. Pimentel of Cedars-Sinai. Ali Rezaie, MD, one of the inventors of this technology states, "Our lab at Cedars-Sinai has extensively studied the effects of this unique technology on bacteria and viruses. Based on our findings we believe this therapeutic approach has the potential to significantly impact the high morbidity and mortality of coronavirus-infected patients and patients infected with other respiratory pathogens. We are looking forward to partnering with Aytu BioScience to move this technology forward for the benefit of patients all over the world."

https://apnews.com/b44f4531071e6204023f7b8e16f59d4b">https://apnews.com/b44f4531071e6204023f7b8e16f59d4b



If it wasn't for greedy and corrupt big pharma co's and the politicization of science, and as you say, the old boys' network crap..I bet a solution could be found within 4 months.

[papasmurf]

OK well if that's right, I'm sure there will be some medical trials - are we sure there aren't other side effects (short or long term) of subjecting someone's entire blood to strong UV light?

The problem is the only research available is from the 1940s. (It was stopped due to the development of antibiotics and vaccines.) The problem is getting a research lab to carry on with it, with tests on blood, DNA, and RNA and other aspects checked.

As has been commented elsewhere on the forum people are tearing their hair out to get a laboratory to do some testing with so far as is known no success.

I at least got an acknowledgement and a reference number, but I have heard no more. (Don't bother to ask.)

[johnofgwent]

OK well if that's right, I'm sure there will be some medical trials - are we sure there aren't other side effects (short or long term) of subjecting someone's entire blood to strong UV light?

Well, I looked into that. There are of course various problems. In my youth they did an experiment in school, and repeated it in university, where they filled a fairly transparent balloon with a mix of hydrogen and chlorine gas, then held it (on a stick) next to strong UV light source and for good measure put a piece of wet litmus paper nest to the balloon before turning on the light



If you have done this you know already, there is a godawful bang and the litmus paper turns bright red. The UV light excites the hydrogen and chlorine molecules so hard the gasses both dissociate into H+ and Cl- ions and next thing you know there's a cloud of a few million atoms of conc hydrochloric acid where the balloon was, and a bloody big bang because that's a fairly exothermic reaction.



Yes indeed, there are negative consequences, and they might be serious. The UV light might, if you are the unluckiest sod on the planet, damage your white blood cells to the point you actually risk lukaemia in a few years time. But at a time of near-death exposure to massive cell -lysing infection, lukaemia in five or ten years time is hardly an issue to someone that will be dead in five to ten days is it.



The other thing is, your liver and kidney's day job is disposal of that detritus, and this virus is insidious in attacking those organs and preventing that disposal...



The written handout for the tetracycline antibiotics I am now taking twice daily because the cellulitis infection in my leg has NOT been totally seen off by either of the previous two antibiotics says starkly "this medication is not suitable for prescription to children under 10 years owing to the staining of teeth and bones and chemical weakening of their structure which may cause issues in later life. A clinician whose patient faces life changing or life threatening infection may however weigh these possibilities as lessor to the consequences of non-administration of this medication"  unquote.



If I were about to be put on a ventilator, I would be screaming what was left of my lungs out to put me on the above if only to be the guinea pig....

[Javert]

The virus wreaks havoc by using the ACE2 receptor as a doorbell to come knocking, and then uses the invaded cell to build more of itself and then when that cell bursts under the assault the virus frees itself into the bloodstream. That is the time the virus is at it's most deadly, migrating through the circulation and destroying other ace2 receptive organs....



And that is the best time to destroy it.

OK well if that's right, I'm sure there will be some medical trials - are we sure there aren't other side effects (short or long term) of subjecting someone's entire blood to strong UV light?

[johnofgwent]

Well if this is true, I would think that they will look into it.  However, aren't you assuming that the virus is in the bloodstream?  As I understand it, this virus doesn't necessarily circulate in your bloodstream, at least that's not where it starts or does the damage.  The question is, even if this works, does killing the virus in your bloodstream actually make you better, given that a lot of virus is in your lungs and other organs by that time?



Also I don't think it's totally true that everything is done top down, but it may be true that lessons learned by different hospitals are not being shared quickly enough.



For example, I found out yesterday that in Warrington hospital they have been using the machines that are used for sleep apnea and modifying them with tight fitting masks, using an idea that came from the asthma / respiratory consultant.  Now using this, Warrington has pretty much the best recovery rate in the country right now and the lowest % of people having to be put on ventilators (after an initial rocky start).  Of course it's early days so it's probably not scientifically proven yet, but the point is that people are trying different approaches.  This is a very new virus and unfortunately medicine and treatment is not quite as truly scientific as most people believe - sometimes you have to trial and error different treatments to see what works.  



What's important is that the evidence for whether a treatment works or not should be robust.  In some ways, it doesn't even matter if we don't know how the treatment works.



I would actually not be surprised if this is one of the reasons the death rate has not been increasing in the last week - that some of it is not down to the lockdown but more down to hospitals figuring out better ways to prevent as many people as possible from dying.

The virus wreaks havoc by using the ACE2 receptor as a doorbell to come knocking, and then uses the invaded cell to build more of itself and then when that cell bursts under the assault the virus frees itself into the bloodstream. That is the time the virus is at it's most deadly, migrating through the circulation and destroying other ace2 receptive organs....



And that is the best time to destroy it.

[patman post]

Medical advances increase during a time of war. We are effectively in a time of war.

I've witnessed amazing advances in many technologies over my lifetime — digitisation and miniaturisation seeming to affect them all. But so far, the speed with which new facilities have been set up and new techniques brought on stream, new social reliefs devised at scale to combat Covid is nothing short of stupendous. It therefore seems a shame that while there are still adjustments and alterations to be made as the disease progresses, these are highlighted in critical animosity amid calls to end the lock-down, rather than a spirit of mutual effort and useful information sharing.

But that's people I suppose...

[papasmurf]

I would actually not be surprised if this is one of the reasons the death rate has not been increasing in the last week - that some of it is not down to the lockdown but more down to hospitals figuring out better ways to prevent as many people as possible from dying.

Medical advances increase during a time of war. We are effectively in a time of war.

[Javert]

Because if you plug a victim into a peristaltic unit as used in a kidney dialysis machine using tubing little different to that used for a transfusion or donation and pump the blood between sterilised quartz plates and hit it HARD with Victoria Beckham's tanning studio set to the 'make me blacker than diane Abbott' setting  guess what IT KILLS THE BLOODY VIRUS inside the ICU....

Well if this is true, I would think that they will look into it.  However, aren't you assuming that the virus is in the bloodstream?  As I understand it, this virus doesn't necessarily circulate in your bloodstream, at least that's not where it starts or does the damage.  The question is, even if this works, does killing the virus in your bloodstream actually make you better, given that a lot of virus is in your lungs and other organs by that time?



Also I don't think it's totally true that everything is done top down, but it may be true that lessons learned by different hospitals are not being shared quickly enough.



For example, I found out yesterday that in Warrington hospital they have been using the machines that are used for sleep apnea and modifying them with tight fitting masks, using an idea that came from the asthma / respiratory consultant.  Now using this, Warrington has pretty much the best recovery rate in the country right now and the lowest % of people having to be put on ventilators (after an initial rocky start).  Of course it's early days so it's probably not scientifically proven yet, but the point is that people are trying different approaches.  This is a very new virus and unfortunately medicine and treatment is not quite as truly scientific as most people believe - sometimes you have to trial and error different treatments to see what works.  



What's important is that the evidence for whether a treatment works or not should be robust.  In some ways, it doesn't even matter if we don't know how the treatment works.



I would actually not be surprised if this is one of the reasons the death rate has not been increasing in the last week - that some of it is not down to the lockdown but more down to hospitals figuring out better ways to prevent as many people as possible from dying.

[T00ts]

Ah yes, you fell into the trap.



Who said anything about going outside.



A chap I know from my skiffling days (yes really) is a member of the royal society. He has been ripping what little hair he has left out.



Because if you plug a victim into a peristaltic unit as used in a kidney dialysis machine using tubing little different to that used for a transfusion or donation and pump the blood between sterilised quartz plates and hit it HARD with Victoria Beckham's tanning studio set to the 'make me blacker than diane Abbott' setting  guess what IT KILLS THE BLOODY VIRUS inside the ICU....



I've been screaming this at people for weeks now.



As has he.



A few decades ago the response would have been 'that's interesting, show me'...



I often wondered what dad felt like trying to make the governments appointed arse holes listen to him about radar waves being refracted which is why they had trouble using the kit in Suez.



I never had to face that wall of total f**king 'la la la I'm not listening to you' jerks with degrees no better than mine whose tutors taught them 'your oxbridge so you're right'



Until now.



Sometimes, I wonder why grandad worked as hard as he did to detect the Luftwaffe.



Because the arse holes in charge dont deserve to be there ...

If what you are saying is true - and I don't doubt you - that really confirms what I have been feeling is wrong here. There seems to be a reluctance to move away from the old boys network and ignore any sort of innovation/intelligence/brilliance from elsewhere. There is a fundamental control freakery in evidence and has been since the beginning.

[johnofgwent]

But they are not denying this - the UK scientists for example have already mentioned that UV light from the sun kills Covid-19 quitea  few times, but they've then added that we cannot yet assume that this means you are completely safe outside.



For one thing.... clouds.



For another thing.... shade.



For another thing - I wouldn't be surprised if Trump was trying to imply that you could get rid of the virus by sunbathing if the virus is already inside you.



I don't think they really know how the virus behaves in real world outside environments, so up to now they have been very careful.



I've had several talks with neighbours who are very concerned that they will catch Covid-19 from an envelope or from a park bench if they sit down for  a rest while out for a walk.  It's a valid risk theoretcially, but I wouldn't be surprised if eventually we find out that you are more likely to be struck by lightning while sitting at the bench than to catch Covid-19 from it.  However, we can't know that for sure yet.

Ah yes, you fell into the trap.



Who said anything about going outside.



A chap I know from my skiffling days (yes really) is a member of the royal society. He has been ripping what little hair he has left out.



Because if you plug a victim into a peristaltic unit as used in a kidney dialysis machine using tubing little different to that used for a transfusion or donation and pump the blood between sterilised quartz plates and hit it HARD with Victoria Beckham's tanning studio set to the 'make me blacker than diane Abbott' setting  guess what IT KILLS THE BLOODY VIRUS inside the ICU....



I've been screaming this at people for weeks now.



As has he.



A few decades ago the response would have been 'that's interesting, show me'...



I often wondered what dad felt like trying to make the governments appointed arse holes listen to him about radar waves being refracted which is why they had trouble using the kit in Suez.



I never had to face that wall of total fucking 'la la la I'm not listening to you' jerks with degrees no better than mine whose tutors taught them 'your oxbridge so you're right'



Until now.



Sometimes, I wonder why grandad worked as hard as he did to detect the Luftwaffe.



Because the arse holes in charge dont deserve to be there ...

[Nalaar]

probably the worst part of this is the fact that the centuries-old discovery that sunlight kills bacteria, and subsequebt research proving UV kills certain viruses including COVID-19 has been ignored in a left wing rush to disinfect the white house of the man against whose policies they were unable to offer anything better to the people...

Yes, if only trump hadn't decided to sabotage this announcement by with his 'sarcastic' statement to reporters to try and 'catch them out'...

[Javert]

probably the worst part of this is the fact that the centuries-old discovery that sunlight kills bacteria, and subsequebt research proving UV kills certain viruses including COVID-19 has been ignored in a left wing rush to disinfect the white house of the man against whose policies they were unable to offer anything better to the people...

But they are not denying this - the UK scientists for example have already mentioned that UV light from the sun kills Covid-19 quitea  few times, but they've then added that we cannot yet assume that this means you are completely safe outside.



For one thing.... clouds.



For another thing.... shade.



For another thing - I wouldn't be surprised if Trump was trying to imply that you could get rid of the virus by sunbathing if the virus is already inside you.



I don't think they really know how the virus behaves in real world outside environments, so up to now they have been very careful.



I've had several talks with neighbours who are very concerned that they will catch Covid-19 from an envelope or from a park bench if they sit down for  a rest while out for a walk.  It's a valid risk theoretcially, but I wouldn't be surprised if eventually we find out that you are more likely to be struck by lightning while sitting at the bench than to catch Covid-19 from it.  However, we can't know that for sure yet.

[T00ts]

probably the worst part of this is the fact that the centuries-old discovery that sunlight kills bacteria, and subsequebt research proving UV kills certain viruses including COVID-19 has been ignored in a left wing rush to disinfect the white house of the man against whose policies they were unable to offer anything better to the people...

... and like in most other ways where USA leads we seem to meekly follow. It's depressing.