It woz the care homes wot dunnit.

[cromwell]

No if you look back I said the govt block booked care home beds before this kicked off to put the elderly in with or without covid apparently to save the nhs,they have now turned round and blamed the care homes.

...and if you actually look back and read what i have written not what you want me to have written , you will see i emphasise this is the normal in many countries going way back long before covid 19 appeared.

You seem to be projecting this as some dastardly plot by the fiendish westminster government in your country to kill off the elderly which is bollocks.

My dads care home bed was block booked before he left hospital ( this is going back a few years ago now) so its feck all to do with saving the nhs and this was in glasgow which is feck all to do with your countries health system or governments control.

The gripe appears to be that your government and many other governments in many coutnries carried on as normal block booking care home beds and sending elderly off to them without testing them for covid 19. So again , its the testing that is the issue , the same as the rest of the population at large in many countries with the possible exception of Germany.

Well you do your camel impression,but who is bleating about you or any other ordinary person,the thread outlines attempts to shift blame.

Thats exactly what you are doing , bleating about care home deaths and trying to shift blame to boris johnson.  The virus and old age killed these people not boris johnson , nicola sturgeon or any other world leader.

Many people including a close relative of mine gave their blood sweat and tears fighting for this countries existence without getting the hump but died a miserable death in a care home because of a policy now denied and the blame shifted to the care homes.

Geez feckin peace cromwell.  Your generation never shut the feck up about the war , yet none of you have ever been near the feckin war in your lives.

The war generation by and large is long gone , and the tiny minority that fought in it and are still alive are well into their nineties now.

You and your fellow whingers wouldnt have fought in the war as you would be too busy blaming the government for not providing enough protective equipment to cope with bombing raids , or how the nasty seargeant major said somethng awfull to the black transgender private.

Lets get the dambusters song on for cromwell.

I suppose I could get the hump being told what a pita people my age are for still existing.

Who is saying that to you? Quote me?

Im saying clearly that everyone everywhere is sacrificing a vast amount to protect the elderly and vulnerable and all we get in response is it isnt enough and never ending whinging of how you want more.

Its a feckin global pandemic ffs , and if it isnt covid 19 taking old folk out , itll be a seasonal virus or harsh winter.  What do you expect governments to do........hand out immortality pills?

Stop feckin moaning is what i say and be a bit more appreciative of your government and country , and the vast majority of people in it from children to the working age generation who have sacrificed loads to protect you.

No you look back and read what I have written not what you wanted me to have said,to repeat I am not trying to uncover some dastardly plot to kill off old people just highlighting that Boris is trying to blame the care homes......is that clear enough for you?
Whinging ? I need nowt from you or anybody else thanks quite capable of isolating as far as possible and getting supplies in.
I've never claimed to have fought in a war,don't have the dam busters on repeat play its you in fact whinging about how much you've sacrificed....to paraphrase you take it up with your countries govt.

[Thomas]

"Across the European region, long-term care has often been notoriously neglected," the World Health Organisation's regional director for Europe, Dr Hans Henri P Kluge, said last month. "The way that such care facilities operate, how residents receive care, is providing pathways for the virus to spread."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/this-whole-corridor-is-dead-europe-s-coronavirus-care-home-disaster-1.4256568


This article in the irish times from back in may highlights how europes long term care has been neglected , not just england , and it ties in with a growing problem of an increasing elderly popualtion across the western world.

Covid 19 has merely exacerbated problems that were largely there in abundance beforehand , and in years to come you will see similar death tolls when seasonal viruses and harsh winters hit.

[Thomas]

I mean this article blaming governments across europe is almost word for word what the left in england is saying about their government( and labour in scotland about scot gov)

COVID-19 fatalities in Europe's care homes far higher than official counts

Across Europe and internationally, the deaths and suffering wrought by government and corporate criminality in the face of the coronavirus pandemic has fallen most heavily on the elderly, sick and disabled.

Just as the belated and partial lockdown measures have begun to stem the tide of fatalities in care homes, the ruling elite in Europe is forging ahead with a recklessly premature easing of lockdown restrictions in line with the demands of big business.

The World Health Organisation (WHO) estimates that up to 50 percent of all COVID-19 deaths to date have occurred among care home residents in Europe.

The proportion of overall COVID-19 deaths involving care home residents ranges between 24 percent in Hungary to 82 percent in Canada, according to figures compiled by the International Long Term Care Policy Network (ILTCP) at the London School of Economics.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/06/01/caeu-j01.html

[Thomas]

Well Johnson and Hancock have claimed that what they really meant was that the care homes didn't have the correct procedures as they hadn't been told them, as we didn't know about asymptomatic spread.

There are two issues here.

First, Johnson said nothing of the sort and it's very difficult to imagine from the words he used, that this is what he meant.

Second, I've seen comments this afternoon that Hancock stated in parliament in March that there were strong suspicions of asymptotic spread, before the mass push into care homes.  If that's true, it should be in Hansard so I presume someone will dig it out.

I wouldnt worry about it javert ,you are again picking the wrong battle and making little to no progress.

You wont lay a glove on johnson till hard brexit happens at the end of the year , and after that , you are faced with an old problem that will resurface........the stigma attached to the electability of the  labour party , the only possible alternative to the tories in your parliament under your dodgy election system.

[Thomas]

No if you look back I said the govt block booked care home beds before this kicked off to put the elderly in with or without covid apparently to save the nhs,they have now turned round and blamed the care homes.

...and if you actually look back and read what i have written not what you want me to have written , you will see i emphasise this is the normal in many countries going way back long before covid 19 appeared.

You seem to be projecting this as some dastardly plot by the fiendish westminster government in your country to kill off the elderly which is bollocks.

My dads care home bed was block booked before he left hospital ( this is going back a few years ago now) so its feck all to do with saving the nhs and this was in glasgow which is feck all to do with your countries health system or governments control.

The gripe appears to be that your government and many other governments in many coutnries carried on as normal block booking care home beds and sending elderly off to them without testing them for covid 19. So again , its the testing that is the issue , the same as the rest of the population at large in many countries with the possible exception of Germany.

Well you do your camel impression,but who is bleating about you or any other ordinary person,the thread outlines attempts to shift blame.

Thats exactly what you are doing , bleating about care home deaths and trying to shift blame to boris johnson.  The virus and old age killed these people not boris johnson , nicola sturgeon or any other world leader.

Many people including a close relative of mine gave their blood sweat and tears fighting for this countries existence without getting the hump but died a miserable death in a care home because of a policy now denied and the blame shifted to the care homes.

Geez feckin peace cromwell.  Your generation never shut the feck up about the war , yet none of you have ever been near the feckin war in your lives.

The war generation by and large is long gone , and the tiny minority that fought in it and are still alive are well into their nineties now.

You and your fellow whingers wouldnt have fought in the war as you would be too busy blaming the government for not providing enough protective equipment to cope with bombing raids , or how the nasty seargeant major said somethng awfull to the black transgender private.

Lets get the dambusters song on for cromwell.

I suppose I could get the hump being told what a pita people my age are for still existing.

Who is saying that to you? Quote me?

Im saying clearly that everyone everywhere is sacrificing a vast amount to protect the elderly and vulnerable and all we get in response is it isnt enough and never ending whinging of how you want more.

Its a feckin global pandemic ffs , and if it isnt covid 19 taking old folk out , itll be a seasonal virus or harsh winter.  What do you expect governments to do........hand out immortality pills?

Stop feckin moaning is what i say and be a bit more appreciative of your government and country , and the vast majority of people in it from children to the working age generation who have sacrificed loads to protect you.

[Thomas]

So who should answer for risks taken by sending people,not recently tested  and in the event a number being infected into vulnerable  care situations.? As it is known to have been top down policy, to do so.? Johns annoyed and so he should be, because the act has to be hard to defend whoever ordered it being carried out.

In scotland it would be our health minister who would answer , but as i understand it englands care system and nhs is vastly different to ours. We have one health system under scot gov control whereas your system is basically competeing individual health trusts in a fragmented nhs with a predominantly private sector care  home system.

So im not sure who would be directly responsible in your country , but as i have pointed out time and again , the same thing you are describing has happened all over the world , not just in england.

I point out again johns gripes are nothing to do with boris johnson or the english conservatives , which is what the general whingers in this thread seem to be moaning about.

Why does anyone need to be to blame? Cant you just accept it has been a nasty situation world wide that all governments have struggled to cope with ?

[cromwell]

Says Boris,bloody priceless blame shifting when it is well known beds were block booked by e govt  before this took off to shift the elderly in to care homes with corona virus thereby resulting in so many deaths.

sorry not sure again what you are saying here cromwell?

First of all your article appears to aportion blame on johnson for 20 000 care home deaths. I thought 20 000 was the figure for england and wales ,

Nearly 20,000 people are confirmed to have died of coronavirus in care homes in England and Wales since the beginning of the outbreak.

The argument here is your government in england didnt test them for covid 19 , not the fact they definetly had the virus in the first place and deliberately transferred them knowing this?

No if you look back I said the govt block booked care home beds before this kicked off to put the elderly in with or without covid apparently to save the nhs,they have now turned round and blamed the care homes.

We have all given blood sweat tears and put our childrens future at feckin risk never mind our livelyhoods so that people who are knocking on heavens door can live a few years longer and all we get is non stop bleating how this isnt enough.

Im starting to get the feckin hump listening to it.

Well you do your camel impression,but who is bleating about you or any other ordinary person,the thread outlines attempts to shift blame.

Many people including a close relative of mine gave their blood sweat and tears fighting for this countries existence without getting the hump but died a miserable death in a care home because of a policy now denied and the blame shifted to the care homes.

Most generations suffer some trial or tribulations,for my part I wouldn't want a care home existence and would rather a quick exit,I suppose I could get the hump being told what a pita people my age are for still existing.

[Javert]

Well Johnson and Hancock have claimed that what they really meant was that the care homes didn't have the correct procedures as they hadn't been told them, as we didn't know about asymptomatic spread.

There are two issues here.

First, Johnson said nothing of the sort and it's very difficult to imagine from the words he used, that this is what he meant.

Second, I've seen comments this afternoon that Hancock stated in parliament in March that there were strong suspicions of asymptotic spread, before the mass push into care homes.  If that's true, it should be in Hansard so I presume someone will dig it out.

[Good old]

Yes !  No one has done particularly well regards Covid ,getting into care homes .

Exactly .

The issue in this thread is Boris, attempting to load the care homes with more of the blame than they actually deserve.

ok so despite all the links regarding "uk " , what we are really talking about it england only.? Where johnson is in charge?

The fact is the care business being in private hands is whole heartedly embraced by the Tories.

and for the majority of the last 23 years the labour party as well. The  british labour party in scotland even went so far as to attempt to abolish free elderly care in scottish care homes in their manifesto and we laughed at them.

It's a service that government has obligation to support. And if it is incapable of giving good service , then it's government that should answer as to why.

Both labour and conservative have failed equally to resolve englands care sector for the last  10 years if not more , from gordon brownd death tax in 2010 to mays dementia tax in 2017 , both have shat themselves to tackle englands problems.

As john of gwent shows over in labour run wales , we also have to ask the welsh government why they too are incapable of giving good service at the same time as when you ask english tories.

This would Be a question for any government to answer , No matter which colour.

Thats what im saying the same has happened to a lesser or greater degree across the world . Its not just in england. It seems to be a fault of many governments in many countries , including labour in wales.

So who should answer for risks taken by sending people,not recently tested  and in the event a number being infected into vulnerable  care situations.? As it is known to have been top down policy, to do so.? Johns annoyed and so he should be, because the act has to be hard to defend whoever ordered it being carried out.

[Javert]

Also keeping in mind that any PPE stockpile has to be continuously monitored for use by dates, replaced where needed, and if you really want to be safe has to contain all the permutations of PPE equipment that might be needed for any type of illness or virus that could theoretically occur.

Interesting. But which PPE items need use by dates? Masks, overalls, visors, etc, shouldn't deteriorate. Latex and butyl gloves might, but even they should last for years if stored correctly. Designs might change for some, but are previous patterns unsafe?
Do different diseases require different PPE — or do medical staff just draw the appropriate items from a general store?
So many unanswered questions...

I don't know the specifics of all PPE obviously, but I know that some masks for example have expiry dates and I got the impression from some news articles that most or all PPE has some kind of expiry or check date.  Some of it may be possible to use if it's checked, and you may be right that it lasts years, but not forever.

Also the PPE requirements are different according to the type of illness, how it spreads, and what is the procedure you are carrying out.  Again, I'm clearly not an expert on every scenarios, but I know for example that Coronavirus PPE requirements there is a bigger need for full length disposable medical gowns rather than more basic upper body covering.  Hence the massive shortage of those gowns because our Pandemic stockpile was mainly designed for a flu virus rather than a Corona type virus.

[Thomas]

Yes !  No one has done particularly well regards Covid ,getting into care homes .

Exactly .

The issue in this thread is Boris, attempting to load the care homes with more of the blame than they actually deserve.

ok so despite all the links regarding "uk " , what we are really talking about it england only.? Where johnson is in charge?

The fact is the care business being in private hands is whole heartedly embraced by the Tories.

and for the majority of the last 23 years the labour party as well. The  british labour party in scotland even went so far as to attempt to abolish free elderly care in scottish care homes in their manifesto and we laughed at them.

It's a service that government has obligation to support. And if it is incapable of giving good service , then it's government that should answer as to why.

Both labour and conservative have failed equally to resolve englands care sector for the last  10 years if not more , from gordon brownd death tax in 2010 to mays dementia tax in 2017 , both have shat themselves to tackle englands problems.

As john of gwent shows over in labour run wales , we also have to ask the welsh government why they too are incapable of giving good service at the same time as when you ask english tories.

This would Be a question for any government to answer , No matter which colour.

Thats what im saying the same has happened to a lesser or greater degree across the world . Its not just in england. It seems to be a fault of many governments in many countries , including labour in wales.

[Good old]

It was known care homes in ,Italy, in particular had a real problem in February, early March. So shouldn't we have been in a position to learn from that.?. Why was it considered good practice here to place untested individuals from  hospital beds, into more vulnerable care  beds, when there was evidence from Italy alone as to the dangers involved.? If you don't learn from a clear warning  it's no surprise  when you get the same bad result.

Same wae the spanish , why didnt they learn from that and end up with the biggest care home deaths in europe?

Or the yanks and many other nations around the world.

The grass is always greener on the other side except in real life.

The labour party didnt do any better according to john of gwent over in taffy land where the welsh care home sector and nhs is under their control.

Yes !  No one has done particularly well regards Covid ,getting into care homes . The issue in this thread is Boris, attempting to load the care homes with more of the blame than they actually deserve. The fact is the care business being in private hands is whole heartedly embraced by the Tories. It's a service that government has obligation to support. And if it is incapable of giving good service , then it's government that should answer as to why.
The care homes would always have struggled with something as dangerous for old people as Covid ,so it's valid to question   Boris, on all counts. In particular. Why send potential  carriers  into closed environments that in most cases were operated by people on little more than the working wage?  Why risk sending infection  directly into care homes knowing how dangerous that would be in any setting. ? This would Be a question for any government to answer , No matter which colour.

[Thomas]

Says Boris,bloody priceless blame shifting when it is well known beds were block booked by e govt  before this took off to shift the elderly in to care homes with corona virus thereby resulting in so many deaths.

sorry not sure again what you are saying here cromwell?

First of all your article appears to aportion blame on johnson for 20 000 care home deaths. I thought 20 000 was the figure for england and wales ,

Nearly 20,000 people are confirmed to have died of coronavirus in care homes in England and Wales since the beginning of the outbreak.

of which the welsh bit as john of gwent says isnt the fault of the tories but the labour clowns?

So is the english figure johnson responsible for around 16 000 ?

Secondly its normal practice to send elderly from hospitals to care homes  across the world, this is what happened to my dad  , where he went from hospital to a south side BUPA care home . The argument here is your government in england didnt test them for covid 19 , not the fact they definetly had the virus in the first place and deliberately transferred them knowing this?

Old folk across europe , from scotland to greece , italy to germany and spain to ireland die in care homes , and covid 19 exacerbated the problems.

This is a virus which predominantly kills the elderly , and governments across the world including yours and mine have shut down their economies , put their childrens lives on hold and locked their people down to protect the elderly which may result in the worst recession the world has faced for three centuries.

If that isnt the world , johnson sturgeon and macron etc etc looking after the elderly as best they can , i dont know what is?

We have all given blood sweat tears and put our childrens future at feckin risk never mind our livelyhoods so that people who are knocking on heavens door can live a few years longer and all we get is non stop bleating how this isnt enough.

Im starting to get the feckin hump listening to it.

[Thomas]

Honestly, I don't know, not least because I long ago gave up caring about what the f**k other countries are doing or not doing.

All I care about is what we are, or are not , doing, and the only fact I know is the welsh twats sent 2000 people to infect a vulnerable population.

Some would call that genocide.

Sounds familiar john , remember labour had glasgow with the lowest life expectancy in the western world at one point (58 for a man) .

Thats labour for you though , and we have discussed many a time how badly wales has been run by the labour party and particularly the welsh nhs ( which again i point out is nothing doirectly to do with englands tories).

You need to kick the british and their parties out yer country.

[Thomas]

It was known care homes in ,Italy, in particular had a real problem in February, early March. So shouldn't we have been in a position to learn from that.?. Why was it considered good practice here to place untested individuals from  hospital beds, into more vulnerable care  beds, when there was evidence from Italy alone as to the dangers involved.? If you don't learn from a clear warning  it's no surprise  when you get the same bad result.

Same wae the spanish , why didnt they learn from that and end up with the biggest care home deaths in europe?

Or the yanks and many other nations around the world.

The grass is always greener on the other side except in real life.

The labour party didnt do any better according to john of gwent over in taffy land where the welsh care home sector and nhs is under their control.