Labour's Starmer on lifting coronavirus lockdown measures

[Good old]

On the contrary I have been straight to the point . Labours spending and borrowing was only  excessive When it was forced into excess by coping with the banking crisis ,which was not its fault. You it seems support the idea ,that no hospitals is better than expensive hospitals. Not surprised ,as by and large that is the Tory approach to most issues.

No you havent been straight to the point.

You have waffled on about the banking crises non stop when we are showing clearly these examples being given all pre date the banking crises , crippling pfi contracts to finance hospitals over tyypically thirty year periods often paying back 5 times the initial expected cost over the term of the contract.

The point was it highlighted the stupidity and gross mismanagement of labour when in power. Once labour were booted out in 2010 due to their profligacy  , mass uncontrolled immigration and general incompetence when in power , these disasterous contracts took massive sums of cash away and still do today from both education and the nhs in both england and scotland . Such was labours incompetence that in many of these cases , not only did the taxpayer not own the buildings at the end of the contract , but in certain cases the land as well.

In the north lanarkshire example , 1300 jobs ended up having to be cut due to the massive spending labour introduced when in power.

So yes , no upgrade on a hosptial is better than a bad labour party PFI hospital.

So Labour had to build houses as well as hospitals and schools, whilst already over spending ? Is that what you think?

Dodge.

The point is clear. You moan when the tories do nothing to upgrade stock in hospitals , but attempt to whine and divert when it is pointed out labour do the same over housing stock?

Brexit  has  yet to prove its self.

Agreed , but only because sir keir starmer and his remain anti democrats sat for four years and refused to accept a referendum result and used every dirty trick at his disposal in parliament to try and stop brexit.

Lets see what happens after december shall we?

If it fails the picture changes there and then.

You hope you mean?

Now as a matter of interest what would be left if you take the National, out of SNP,,  We know what  Shade of blue , National represents . Where does it go from there.

I couldnt care less , i wont be voting snp in a independent scotland. I just want to live in an indy normal country like every other nation on earth  , and not have your country pick our government for us.

As long as we dont have labour in charge , i will be happy.

Nothing new then,  you don't like Labour , you won't vote SNP, yet we in England, should embrace Tory rule for ever more.  Next you will tell us your not a Tory. You seem to think  that the whole Labour hospital and school building projects should not have happened , if only because you think the financing was questionable. If we had followed that thinking the NHS would have been finished long ago. You criticise Labour spending , but criticise them again  when they didn't spend anything on housing. All the time applauding the fact that Tories spent very little on, hospitals, schools, or housing. 

[Thomas]

On the contrary I have been straight to the point . Labours spending and borrowing was only  excessive When it was forced into excess by coping with the banking crisis ,which was not its fault. You it seems support the idea ,that no hospitals is better than expensive hospitals. Not surprised ,as by and large that is the Tory approach to most issues.

No you havent been straight to the point.

You have waffled on about the banking crises non stop when we are showing clearly these examples being given all pre date the banking crises , crippling pfi contracts to finance hospitals over tyypically thirty year periods often paying back 5 times the initial expected cost over the term of the contract.

The point was it highlighted the stupidity and gross mismanagement of labour when in power. Once labour were booted out in 2010 due to their profligacy  , mass uncontrolled immigration and general incompetence when in power , these disasterous contracts took massive sums of cash away and still do today from both education and the nhs in both england and scotland . Such was labours incompetence that in many of these cases , not only did the taxpayer not own the buildings at the end of the contract , but in certain cases the land as well.

In the north lanarkshire example , 1300 jobs ended up having to be cut due to the massive spending labour introduced when in power.

So yes , no upgrade on a hosptial is better than a bad labour party PFI hospital.

So Labour had to build houses as well as hospitals and schools, whilst already over spending ? Is that what you think?

Dodge.

The point is clear. You moan when the tories do nothing to upgrade stock in hospitals , but attempt to whine and divert when it is pointed out labour do the same over housing stock?

Brexit  has  yet to prove its self.

Agreed , but only because sir keir starmer and his remain anti democrats sat for four years and refused to accept a referendum result and used every dirty trick at his disposal in parliament to try and stop brexit.

Lets see what happens after december shall we?

If it fails the picture changes there and then.

You hope you mean?

Now as a matter of interest what would be left if you take the National, out of SNP,,  We know what  Shade of blue , National represents . Where does it go from there.

I couldnt care less , i wont be voting snp in a independent scotland. I just want to live in an indy normal country like every other nation on earth  , and not have your country pick our government for us.

As long as we dont have labour in charge , i will be happy.

[Good old]

History was rewritten over that ten years. By people like yourself.

Where?

Im pointing out the incompetence of the labour party when in power , and you start waffling on about the banking crises of 2008.

The two articles i linked you to were years before the banking crises of 2008. For example , the murderously expensive and incompetent  PFI contract labour signed off for schools in north lanarkshire worth £150 million , but costing 5 times that amount over decades , was done in 2006. So what are you waffling on about the banking crises for?

Its a clear example of the rubbish you are talking  , where i highlight the muderous incompetence and profligacy of labour when in power which is nothing to do with the banking crises.? A clear example of over the top spending where the bill is kicked down the road by labour for future generations to pay as they always do.

The SNP and the tories have highlighted time and again where scotland and the uk money has went to  , to pay for labours 13 years of borrow and spend.

The Tories had done nothing to update the property stock of the NHS In twenty odd years.

Just as labour did nothing when in power for thirteen years to update council housing stock.

No one is suggesting governments shouldnt spend money on infrastucture or housing etc , but we are pointing out the murderously incompetent way labour did so while in power. Hence why they can't be trusted with the purse strings.

How nationalism is used is why Scotland, doesn't need .Labour, or Tory. In England Tories will rule , but not always totally Blue, sometimes pink, sometimes Red, but always Tory.

I love people like you , cheerleaders for new labour.

You remind me of an old adversary of mine from an old forum , went by the name goodfellow. He used to be the sole voice defending the disaster of the blair years , and it was a joy listening to him.

He single handedly helped keep new labour out of power for years with his never ending defence of his heros in new labour and their disasterous record in power.

As for your silly reference to being in power , Starmer wont get new labour back into power. Not unless the english want a return to the days of mass immigration the blair forced on them , and of course the minute starmer ever gets his hands on the reigns of power , he will take england straight back into the eu by hook or by crook.

This should be enough to stop any english brexiter voting for his party.

On the contrary I have been straight to the point . Labours spending and borrowing was only  excessive When it was forced into excess by coping with the banking crisis ,which was not its fault. You it seems support the idea ,that no hospitals is better than expensive hospitals. Not surprised ,as by and large that is the Tory approach to most issues.
So Labour had to build houses as well as hospitals and schools, whilst already over spending ? Is that what you think?
While all the time the Tories sat on their hands claiming they don't bother because Labour  didn't.
Brexit  has  yet to prove its self. It's far to early to claim it will keep the Tories safe. If it fails the picture changes there and then. If Boris, or his successors fail to impress in their general handling of our affairs then  a failed brexit will draw the electorate toward considering throwing them out.
It will remain a difficult call that can not be denied, but not impossible ,certainly not to be covered by ,silly, naive , or any other derogatory  term you might use. May, didnt hold the useless Corbyn, by that much. I don't claim Starmer, is a mastermind. I claim he wouldn't have to be.
I have claimed that we in England will be ruled by Tory, Tory,Red, Tory, Pink. Now as a matter of interest what would be left if you take the National, out of SNP,,  We know what  Shade of blue , National represents . Where does it go from there. ? Its relevant as you seem to think only true Tory blue should and does hold sway in England.

[johnofgwent]

I think the only opinion poll that matters is the one that is currently restricted to only happening every five years 

I think that the five year fixed term parliament  will end up being a big millstone about Bojo The Clown's neck. (Mind you given the increasing unrest amongst Tory MPs he may not last that long, that or the aftermath of him catching Covid-19.

I was under the impression measures are afoot to do away with the fixed term parliament act. Having seen what it does - what it was clearly INTENDED to do by a treacherous sabotaging fucker who now gets paid to be Facebook's apologist - I think it will be straightforward to chuck the bill back where it bel8ngs. Up Cleggs arse with his other shit

[Thomas]

History was rewritten over that ten years. By people like yourself.

Where?

Im pointing out the incompetence of the labour party when in power , and you start waffling on about the banking crises of 2008.

The two articles i linked you to were years before the banking crises of 2008. For example , the murderously expensive and incompetent  PFI contract labour signed off for schools in north lanarkshire worth £150 million , but costing 5 times that amount over decades , was done in 2006. So what are you waffling on about the banking crises for?

Its a clear example of the rubbish you are talking  , where i highlight the muderous incompetence and profligacy of labour when in power which is nothing to do with the banking crises.? A clear example of over the top spending where the bill is kicked down the road by labour for future generations to pay as they always do.

The SNP and the tories have highlighted time and again where scotland and the uk money has went to  , to pay for labours 13 years of borrow and spend.

The Tories had done nothing to update the property stock of the NHS In twenty odd years.

Just as labour did nothing when in power for thirteen years to update council housing stock.

No one is suggesting governments shouldnt spend money on infrastucture or housing etc , but we are pointing out the murderously incompetent way labour did so while in power. Hence why they cant be trusted with the purse strings.

How nationalism is used is why Scotland, doesn't need .Labour, or Tory. In England Tories will rule , but not always totally Blue, sometimes pink, sometimes Red, but always Tory.

I love people like you , cheerleaders for new labour.

You remind me of an old adversary of mine from an old forum , went by the name goodfellow. He used to be the sole voice defending the disaster of the blair years , and it was a joy listening to him.

He single handedly helped keep new labour out of power for years with his never ending defence of his heros in new labour and their disasterous record in power.

As for your silly reference to being in power , Starmer wont get new labour back into power. Not unless the english want a return to the days of mass immigration the blair forced on them , and of course the minute starmer ever gets his hands on the reigns of power , he will take england straight back into the eu by hook or by crook.

This should be enough to stop any english brexiter voting for his party.

[Good old]

Before Blair got in, the UK's finances had become reasonably healthy under the stewardship of Kenneth Clarke and the Tories, with debt in decline.
Within two years of Labour forming a government, spending and borrowing were rapidly rising. Gordon Brown's PFI actions meant health and education trusts were saddled with enormous regular payments that tied up huge amounts of their regular income over decades. They then also ran into debt. By the time Labour was pushed out of office in 2010, UK public sector net debt had climbed way above the '96 and '97 peak, and was soaring.
But the banking debacle was not Labour's fault — without Brown's international initiative there would have been greater international chaos. The banks got themselves into their own mess — the British ones because of their incompetent and greedy management — few at the top actually had any banking related qualifications.
So who know what happens now? Employment looks set to plummet. Small businesses are closing. And the High Street looks nervous.
But house prices are rising !!!  There's a surge in buyer demand after the lockdown has lifted and the government's launch of the stamp duty holiday...

Ken, did get the finances looking healthy.But the property market had still barely stirred after years of no noticeable movement . London, might have seen some ,the rest of the country zilch, for years on end. Add that to mass unemployment  and the country had been in a sorry state for some time . The finances can look good but at what price.?
The PFI arrangements are open to criticism , it's pretty obvious they were not perfect. But again, the schools had been run down so badly enormous expenditure was needed in  repairs and new units for ever increasing demand. The same applied to the NHS facilities. The truth was there had been nowhere near enough investment in even maintaining let alone improving either school or NHS facilities. I will make this point again. How can doing virtually nothing about pressing problems be preferable to a finance arrangement that isn't thought perfect, but at least actually addresses the problem, and not just ignore it, pretending that makes more financial sense?
It's very clear in the last two years before Labour left office Supporting the country through the banking crisis was responsible for the sudden increase in their borrowing .Prior to that annual borrowing  was slightly below the borrowing done by the. Tories in the similar 8 year period . A period in which the Tories were as ever investing as little as possible in schools and hospitals. Leaving it as a priority for Labour.
The record would infer that you can not keep the facilities this country relies on up to scratch without borrowing, and borrowing is not just Labours , territory the Tories do just as much ,its harder to see what it is they do with it, but they do it.

[patman post]

Before Blair got in, the UK's finances had become reasonably healthy under the stewardship of Kenneth Clarke and the Tories, with debt in decline.
Within two years of Labour forming a government, spending and borrowing were rapidly rising. Gordon Brown's PFI actions meant health and education trusts were saddled with enormous regular payments that tied up huge amounts of their regular income over decades. They then also ran into debt. By the time Labour was pushed out of office in 2010, UK public sector net debt had climbed way above the '96 and '97 peak, and was soaring.
But the banking debacle was not Labour's fault — without Brown's international initiative there would have been greater international chaos. The banks got themselves into their own mess — the British ones because of their incompetent and greedy management — few at the top actually had any banking related qualifications.
So who know what happens now? Employment looks set to plummet. Small businesses are closing. And the High Street looks nervous.
But house prices are rising !!!  There's a surge in buyer demand after the lockdown has lifted and the government's launch of the stamp duty holiday...

[Good old]

History was rewritten over that ten years. By people like yourself. Without the banking crisis Labour borrowing was never above the borrowing done by the Tories , in their previous ten years. The spike in borrowing for the banking crisis ,was a gift  from heaven. Allowing the Tory, and you  to interpret the effects of the crisis in anti Labour terms.
The Tories had done nothing to update the property stock of the NHS In twenty odd years. It was  to a large degree Victorian,And showing it. They haven't done much in the last ten years either.The fact that you are more concerned about a questionable financial arrangement ,than  something approaching thirty years of doing nothing other than whinge about its upkeep  says your bullshitting .How nationalism is used is why Scotland, doesn't need .Labour, or Tory. In England Tories will rule , but not always totally Blue, sometimes pink, sometimes Red, but always Tory.

[Thomas]

The banking crisis was used as the excuse to reduce ,services in all parts of the UK to just about working. The excuse for ten years of austerity.  It will not be taken as an excuse in future that's the point being made .

No it wasnt. Now you are trying to re write history.

Much of the reason we had austerity was yet again because of the labour parties profligacy in spending vast amounts of money on grandiose projects then kicking the bill down the road for future generations to pay.Do you seriously think people forget this?

What about spending 5 times the amount via PFI on schools than what they needed to...

A Labour council, operating under a Labour Scottish Executive and a Labour government at Westminster, needed to spend £150m on its schools, but rather than use a small fraction of the effectively free money that was sitting around unspent in the Executive's coffers, signed off on a PFI contract that would cost Scottish taxpayers £729m to do the exact same job.

or ten billion of taxpayers money on hospitals that should only have cost 2 billion once again through tony blairs infamous PFI?




You left the cash coffers totally empty ,then have the cheek to whine for ten years that its all the tories fault for blaming the banking crises while forgetting little things like the vast amount of cash wasted on crippling PFI projects that generations will be paying for into the future.

And it's most likely chance lies in the present crop of Tories shitting in their own nest.

You hope you mean? A wing and a prayer with your fingers crossed is all you have.

As the SNP is a party giving you the Scots, Nationalism, with a healthy dose of socialism . It's not a fair comparison, to the situation in England, .
As I see it , to get rid of Tories ,we in England look to Red Tories, You can refer to the whole of the middle ground in England in that way. None of them go to far one way or the other, it's all there is. You it seems have Nationalists , with a socialist leaning . Or that's how they seem to want to be seen. At the very least they don't appear to like Tories. So why would Scots need Labour in any form, any more than they need the Tories.?

LMFAO.

25 year old out of date politics , with a large dose of wishfull thinking thrown in.

When blair came to power in 97 , with his triangualtion and middle way , he had many factors to rely on to get him into power that dont exist for the new red tories today.

Blair had the left wing and socialist vote that kinnock and smith did the donkey work to get , while also appealing to the middle england tory marginals. Starmer wont have that luxury. On top of that , blair had the luxury of 40 odd scottish seats which again starmer doesnt have .

Blair if you remember went on over three elections to lost over three million left wing labour votes , and it finally caught up with new labour under brown. This will be the position starmer , like milliband  , will be starting from.

Dont you realise "new labour" as a concept is so out of touch and date its laughable? Your party really has no forward thinking or vision does it? Just re hashing of the past failures.

Unlike blair , starmer isnt going to attract middle england tory voters who voted brexit , so that baggage will weigh him down badly. On top of that , you keep telling us how "politically smart" starmer is ( yet so far we havent seen anything to justify that statement , just again more wishfull thinking) yet starmer was one of the main men behind the disasterous labour strategy at the last election that saw them achieve the worst result in their history.

He totally misread englands brexiters  , and they gave him a severe kicking. Talk about not seeing the writing on the wall and living in your own bubble ?

...and this is the mastermind you say is going to sweep all before him in england?

[Good old]

The banking crisis was used as the excuse to reduce ,services in all parts of the UK to just about working. The excuse for ten years of austerity.  It will not be taken as an excuse in future that's the point being made . There is no suggestion by me that alone would carry Labour into Downing Street. In fact I'm happy to accept that Labour have a hell of a job on their hands . And it's most likely chance lies in the present crop of Tories shitting in their own nest.
As the SNP is a party giving you the Scots, Nationalism, with a healthy dose of socialism . It's not a fair comparison, to the situation in England, .
As I see it , to get rid of Tories ,we in England look to Red Tories, You can refer to the whole of the middle ground in England in that way. None of them go to far one way or the other, it's all there is. You it seems have Nationalists , with a socialist leaning . Or that's how they seem to want to be seen. At the very least they don't appear to like Tories. So why would Scots need Labour in any form, any more than they need the Tories.?

[/quote]

[Thomas]

It's not what the left can rely on, more a case of what forms of deception the Tories can any longer fall back on.  If you are right about what it is people take no notice of , then god help the UK,. I agree Starmer , has to put the far left , firmly in a box . But then Boris, has to get clear of his next blunder, the form would suggest that's a non starter .

Aye i agree with borkie.

I dont get your reference to the banking crises or the tories living off the back of blaming labour for it. If you think thats how shallow labours problems are in trying to get re elected , then more fool you.

The idea the tories are somehow relying on forms of deception to "fool the gullible public" ( more brit left condescending guff) is laughable . How then does this explain labours wipe out in scotland ?

The idea we are simply going to get the difficult issues like brexit or scottish indy out of the way so that the brit left have an easy path back to power by simply resorting back to whining about unequal societies and rich v poor is naive in the extreme.

Labour arent fit for power anywhere. Starmer certainly isnt some messiah who is going to lead the red tories back to the promised land , as the political landscape has drastically changed since the days when the red tories were last in power.

As long as the brit left keep deluding themselves  ,the rest of us can get on with things regardless.

[Good old]

The Covid , situation hasn't helped anyone . Not even a Starmer , to any great degree. Boris ,Has got time , but he  has got to to find something to impress however.
He can no longer live off the idea the international banking crisis was all Labours fault. That the only way to run the economy ,is to starve it's vital parts  of cash. On the pretext that to do otherwise would require a fictional money tree . Boris, himself has put the lie to that with his pre-Covid, spending plans. What was it forty hospitals just for starters, nurses and doctors and staff to work them, more of everything in fact not just on health but across the board. Nothing wrong with that, except for the deception involved in the previous ten years.
There is no ,no hope , easy to hit Corbyn, now ,or a Brexit, rallying point. Starmer will get back to smart tactical politics , and if Boris, falls short , the electorate , will know they could have a way out in Starmer. Polls now merely reflect the potential for Starmer.

I don't get the reference to the 2008 banking crisis. If the left are relying on memories of that to get their man into Downing Street then I think they will be disappointed.

It's not what the left can rely on, more a case of what forms of deception the Tories can any longer fall back on.  If you are right about what it is people take no notice of , then god help the UK,. I agree Starmer , has to put the far left , firmly in a box . But then Boris, has to get clear of his next blunder, the form would suggest that's a non starter .

[Borchester]

The Covid , situation hasn't helped anyone . Not even a Starmer , to any great degree. Boris ,Has got time , but he  has got to to find something to impress however.
He can no longer live off the idea the international banking crisis was all Labours fault. That the only way to run the economy ,is to starve it's vital parts  of cash. On the pretext that to do otherwise would require a fictional money tree . Boris, himself has put the lie to that with his pre-Covid, spending plans. What was it forty hospitals just for starters, nurses and doctors and staff to work them, more of everything in fact not just on health but across the board. Nothing wrong with that, except for the deception involved in the previous ten years.
There is no ,no hope , easy to hit Corbyn, now ,or a Brexit, rallying point. Starmer will get back to smart tactical politics , and if Boris, falls short , the electorate , will know they could have a way out in Starmer. Polls now merely reflect the potential for Starmer.

Starmer may have the smarts but he is a remainer stuck with Corbyn's army and that didn't work last time and probably won't next.

No one takes much notice of how many hospital, roads, police or whatever politicians promise to build and actually do, but Boris is fond of spending pots of money on grand gestures, so will probably do better than most.

I don't get the reference to the 2008 banking crisis. If the left are relying on memories of that to get their man into Downing Street then I think they will be disappointed.

[Good old]

The Covid , situation hasn't helped anyone . Not even a Starmer , to any great degree. Boris ,Has got time , but he  has got to to find something to impress however.
He can no longer live off the idea the international banking crisis was all Labours fault. That the only way to run the economy ,is to starve it's vital parts  of cash. On the pretext that to do otherwise would require a fictional money tree . Boris, himself has put the lie to that with his pre-Covid, spending plans. What was it forty hospitals just for starters, nurses and doctors and staff to work them, more of everything in fact not just on health but across the board. Nothing wrong with that, except for the deception involved in the previous ten years.
There is no ,no hope , easy to hit Corbyn, now ,or a Brexit, rallying point. Starmer will get back to smart tactical politics , and if Boris, falls short , the electorate , will know they could have a way out in Starmer. Polls now merely reflect the potential for Starmer.

[Borchester]

You don't look at opinion polls?

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating

I think the only opinion poll that matters is the one that is currently restricted to only happening every five years 

Don't forget I like everyone else they ask get PAID by yougov to say what i think.

And they don't pay much. It is still only ten bob a survey, so the only ones that bother are arseless kids who aren't overly keen on the Tories to start with.

There won't be a general election before January 2021 which means that we will be out of the EU. After that Starmer has less than four years to convert the current Labour party ( Marxist Leninist Fourth International Alliance) into the harmless, and thereby electable, left of centre Social Democratic Party that Tony led to three electoral victories.