General Brexit discussion thread

[Scott777]

It's relevent because we can't leave until we have decided which version of brexit to leave with.



Shouting "leave!" Doesn't cut it.



Specify how you want to leave and demonstrate there's a majority for it.

No, that's not how it works.  We weren't asked how to leave, and your logic is complete nonsense.  You could have any referendum or question at all, and I can name more than one way of doing what you decide.  Go ahead.  What would you like to happen?

[BeElBeeBub]

So, to confirm, what you want is not the same as what is in your interest?  Well done, you are a linguistic genius.  Given that we do not agree on interpretations of the thing that you decided to quote to support your argument, I shall stick to my own terms: the will of the people.  Is that also not necessarily what people want?

Somebody might want to smoke. Is that in their interests?



Somebody might want to sit on the sofa and eat chips. Is that in their interests?



Somebody might want to give their life savings to the ex king of Nigerian. Is that in their interests?



MPs job is to decide what is in the best interests of their constituents which might mean running counter to some of their constituents specific wishes.



You can't define what the will of the people is regarding brexit other than the vague instruction "leave" with no timescale attached.

[BeElBeeBub]

It's irrelevant, because we haven't left by any possible interpretation.

It's relevent because we can't leave until we have decided which version of brexit to leave with.



Shouting "leave!" Doesn't cut it.



Specify how you want to leave and demonstrate there's a majority for it.

[Scott777]

They may well very be representing the interests of the people.

So, to confirm, what you want is not the same as what is in your interest?  Well done, you are a linguistic genius.  Given that we do not agree on interpretations of the thing that you decided to quote to support your argument, I shall stick to my own terms: the will of the people.  Is that also not necessarily what people want?

[Scott777]

Show me which of the many possible interpretations of "leave the EU" you think has a majority and I'll support you.

It's irrelevant, because we haven't left by any possible interpretation.

[BeElBeeBub]

I never said MPs have defied the "unified will of the people". It's a strawman.  You made it up. The closest you can possibly achieve to that is to abide by the majority.

<Snip>

And my second question has 2 parts: Did we vote with a democratic majority to leave?  Have we left?

Show me which of the many possible interpretations of "leave the EU" you think has a majority and I'll support you.



You cannot know which version of leave people meant when they voted in 2016. Norway like Farage proposed? Maybe it was May's deal which would have been Canada ish.  Was it no deal despite the official leave campaign ruling that out?



Once you've picked one, let's find out if it really has a majority.

So I'll ask you again: if everyone voted to leave on WTO (just use your imagination) and MPs refused, and we voted in new ones, and still they refused, etc, etc, are they representing the interests of the people?

They may well very be representing the interests of the people.



The interests of the people is distinct from what the people may want (if that is even a defined thing).



People want better services, lower taxes, freedom to do what they want and limits on other people doing bad things.



In reality, you can't simultaneously have better services and lower taxes and nobody can agree on exactly where the line between bad things that people should be stopped from doing and perfectly acceptable things that you should be allowed to do is.



You can't ask "shall we make the UK great again?" and then use a yes vote to push through whatever policy you want.

[BeElBeeBub]

Being a proponent of something doesn't necessarily mean being a genuine proponent.  Boris is not genuine.  And neither person is relevant to what people voted for.

And what did they vote for?

[papasmurf]

I have checked, thanks.  Clearly what you call checking is listening to propaganda.

I did not link to propaganda. The WTO problems are facts not supposition,

[Scott777]

I didn't fall into anything, any one who is not aware of the serious problems the WTO has, should check for themselves, it isn't a secret.

I have checked, thanks.  Clearly what you call checking is listening to propaganda.

[Scott777]

Really?



Clearly two of the leading proponents of brexit cannot agree on what brexit actually is, but somehow everyone knew what brexit was.

Being a proponent of something doesn't necessarily mean being a genuine proponent.  Boris is not genuine.  And neither person is relevant to what people voted for.

[papasmurf]

Fortunately, I don't listen to the snake-oil bits.  There are two such bits of oily snaky stuff: Leaving WTO would be a walk in the park; leaving on WTO would be a disaster.  I guess you fell for the latter.

I didn't fall into anything, any one who is not aware of the serious problems the WTO has, should check for themselves, it isn't a secret.

[Scott777]

That would show how little they know about the WTO and its current problems. Leaving on WTO currently would be madness and the snake oil selling British politicians who state leaving on WTO rules is not problematic are frankly liars or ignorant of the WTO problems:-



https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/path-forward-wto-reform">https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/com ... wto-reform">https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/path-forward-wto-reform#

Fortunately, I don't listen to the snake-oil bits.  There are two such bits of oily snaky stuff: Leaving WTO would be a walk in the park; leaving on WTO would be a disaster.  I guess you fell for the latter.

[papasmurf]

So I'll ask you again: if everyone voted to leave on WTO

That would show how little they know about the WTO and its current problems. Leaving on WTO currently would be madness and the snake oil selling British politicians who state leaving on WTO rules is not problematic are frankly liars or ignorant of the WTO problems:-



https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/path-forward-wto-reform">https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/com ... wto-reform">https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/path-forward-wto-reform#

[Scott777]

But if there isn't a unified "will of the people", how can MPs defy it?



If an MP supports a ban on fox hunting they will be making a choice that some voters dislike whilst others approve of.



Similarly the MP opposing the ban will be disappointing and delighting different voters.



So MPs must make up their own minds. This means that "the people" cannot be sovereign over Parliament.



My interpretation of the referendum result is perfectly legitimate and complies exactly with the question asked.  It may not be an interpretation you or others subscribe to but that's my point.

I never said MPs have defied the "unified will of the people". It's a strawman.  You made it up. The closest you can possibly achieve to that is to abide by the majority.



So I'll ask you again: if everyone voted to leave on WTO (just use your imagination) and MPs refused, and we voted in new ones, and still they refused, etc, etc, are they representing the interests of the people?



And my second question has 2 parts: Did we vote with a democratic majority to leave?  Have we left?

[johnofgwent]

Well, all I can say is my personal experience of the justice system as a plaintiff and an expert witness left me in little doubt of the degree of bias and incompetence in both judiciary and advocates on both sides.



The trial of the guy who tried to incinerate my daughter and infant grand daughter alive to cover up the rape and double murder he'd just committed in the flat above served only to show me how far the standards have fallen since the 80s.



And the political bias of certain of the judiciary I have had to tangle with on several levels on other matters is both blatant and unfettered.



You may claim the process is not tainted. I wonder if you'd think that if you had to watch the process in action.....