Have we become ungovernable?

[Borg Refinery]

It's quite gratifying to see that there are a couple of people who don't assume that I am some sort of mad woman!  I do get the point about some collective decisions flying in the face of decent behaviour, so I can recognise that I have been too all encompassing in my thought process. It is so nice to find that dissatisfaction with some standards of behaviour transcend political partisanship. Not all would accept that.

So should there be a movement generally to encourage a higher standard of behaviour not only in high places but throughout society and are we currently doing enough to achieve that outcome? What should/could we change?

Where to even start? There are so many things but uh.. I don't even know where to start with changing siciety. (sighs in exasperation)

[johnofgwent]

I thought I had replied to this thread but it seems not.

I do not think we have become ungovernable. I think the things governments try to get away with have become more risible.

A post a few back suggested the problem was a lack of enforcement.

I disagree. It is a lack of common sense that is the issue here. And I mean common sense on the part of the lawmakers.

Britain as a society was once policed by consent. The laws one was expected to abide by were such that any right thinking person would say of anyone convicted of contravention 'well what did you expect'

The country has long since departed from that. And it started with Blairs 3,500 new ways to end up with a criminal record, many of which were actually a badge of honour granting you reduced price admission to tourist venues.

[Barry]

I don't think you ever doubted that because you have faith. So do I but it is not Christian faith.

What is your faith, then?

It is not that of an organised religion but self attained via a process of meditation, reading, and thought. I believe in an afterlife followed by reincarnation, that our souls are immortal and have been around since the dawn of life and have evolved with it. Insofar as my beliefs can be compared to any organised religion I guess they encompass elements of Buddhism and spiritualism

Interesting. What is the basis of that belief, because you seem to have beliefs, but no faith in any god or God?

[srb7677]

I don't think you ever doubted that because you have faith. So do I but it is not Christian faith.

What is your faith, then?

It is not that of an organised religion but self attained via a process of meditation, reading, and thought. I believe in an afterlife followed by reincarnation, that our souls are immortal and have been around since the dawn of life and have evolved with it. Insofar as my beliefs can be compared to any organised religion I guess they encompass elements of Buddhism and spiritualism

[Barry]

I don't think you ever doubted that because you have faith. So do I but it is not Christian faith.

What is your faith, then?

[T00ts]

Thank you I have often wondered if I was an ok person. 

I don't think you ever doubted that because you have faith. So do I but it is not Christian faith.

Oh you wouldn't believe. Every day is a challenge. Having a Christian faith makes the demands so much harder. It must be much easier not to have any. Trouble is once it's recognised it's impossible to either deny or ignore it!

[srb7677]

Thank you I have often wondered if I was an ok person. 

I don't think you ever doubted that because you have faith. So do I but it is not Christian faith.

[T00ts]

It's quite gratifying to see that there are a couple of people who don't assume that I am some sort of mad woman!  I do get the point about some collective decisions flying in the face of decent behaviour, so I can recognise that I have been too all encompassing in my thought process. It is so nice to find that dissatisfaction with some standards of behaviour transcend political partisanship. Not all would accept that.

So should there be a movement generally to encourage a higher standard of behaviour not only in high places but throughout society and are we currently doing enough to achieve that outcome? What should/could we change?

My default setting as a socialist liberal is to assume that all Tory supporters are bad people.

Clearly such an assumption would be misguided in your case because your heart is clearly in the right place, even though we disagree on matters of politics and religion.

It is always a useful lesson to learn that just becomes someone's politics is very different it does not make them evil. That is a useful lesson to learn from time to time so thank you. It helps keeps me grounded and prevents me from becoming a total ideologue.

As to your wider point, I think there is too much individualism manifesting as selfishness. The greater good is often forgotten by individuals who cannot see beyond their own wants. Too much me, me , me and not enough thought for the collective good. The notion that the naked pursuit of self interest floats all boats has always seemed to me to be fallacious. Society cannot function well without capitalism in some measure but it needs to be ethical and not sociopathically selfish

Thank you I have often wondered if I was an ok person.  Sadly we all wish that greed was not part of human nature, it is another cross to bear and another battle to win. God never said it would be easy, even if you don't believe in Him. We have a duty to provide for ourselves then use the excess to provide for those unable to. Perhaps if everyone believed then the world would be a better place, the thing  is that we have been allowed our own choice, and for all sorts of reasons that's the way it should be.

[srb7677]

It's quite gratifying to see that there are a couple of people who don't assume that I am some sort of mad woman!  I do get the point about some collective decisions flying in the face of decent behaviour, so I can recognise that I have been too all encompassing in my thought process. It is so nice to find that dissatisfaction with some standards of behaviour transcend political partisanship. Not all would accept that.

So should there be a movement generally to encourage a higher standard of behaviour not only in high places but throughout society and are we currently doing enough to achieve that outcome? What should/could we change?

My default setting as a socialist liberal is to assume that all Tory supporters are bad people.

Clearly such an assumption would be misguided in your case because your heart is clearly in the right place, even though we disagree on matters of politics and religion.

It is always a useful lesson to learn that just becomes someone's politics is very different it does not make them evil. That is a useful lesson to learn from time to time so thank you. It helps keeps me grounded and prevents me from becoming a total ideologue.

As to your wider point, I think there is too much individualism manifesting as selfishness. The greater good is often forgotten by individuals who cannot see beyond their own wants. Too much me, me , me and not enough thought for the collective good. The notion that the naked pursuit of self interest floats all boats has always seemed to me to be fallacious. Society cannot function well without capitalism in some measure but it needs to be ethical and not sociopathically selfish

[T00ts]

It's quite gratifying to see that there are a couple of people who don't assume that I am some sort of mad woman!  I do get the point about some collective decisions flying in the face of decent behaviour, so I can recognise that I have been too all encompassing in my thought process. It is so nice to find that dissatisfaction with some standards of behaviour transcend political partisanship. Not all would accept that.

So should there be a movement generally to encourage a higher standard of behaviour not only in high places but throughout society and are we currently doing enough to achieve that outcome? What should/could we change?

[Borg Refinery]

I am a bit of an odd ball to many because I believe that we are all spiritual beings in a human body. I believe also that we all know very well what is right. We all know deep down how we should treat one another in every moment of our lives. I also believe that we make the choice to ignore our conscience which I believe we all have. So when I see people being cruel, unruly, criminal, or even unwilling to accept majority choices that we have agreed to abide by as a society, I feel that the control that we could and should exert over our physical impulses will lead us to chaos.

I think we have a duty both individually and collectively to expect from others and exert on ourselves real self control for the good of all.

I agree except the majority decision bit.

A majority in the past felt it was ok to expel every single Jew from Britain (Edicts of expulsion) so I can't agree with rule by the majority - sometimes it's just wrong.

Same for types of communism..

But other than that I agree.

I think it only reflects on others when they criticize others for not wearing masks etc - hpw do you know such aren't exempt?

[srb7677]

I am a bit of an odd ball to many because I believe that we are all spiritual beings in a human body. I believe also that we all know very well what is right. We all know deep down how we should treat one another in every moment of our lives.

I feel that though politics divides you and I, I agree totally with the words of yours that I have quoted. I too believe that we are essentially spiritual beings, albeit not necessarily within a Christian framework. If we all were to apply simple rules of conscience - compassion for the less fortunate and don't do to others what you would not like done to yourself - we would very much be on the right path of what is right and what is wrong. I think these deeper meanings transcend the politics of left or right, and that both left and right can be motivated by either higher morals or baser instincts.

[T00ts]

I am a bit of an odd ball to many because I believe that we are all spiritual beings in a human body. I believe also that we all know very well what is right. We all know deep down how we should treat one another in every moment of our lives. I also believe that we make the choice to ignore our conscience which I believe we all have. So when I see people being cruel, unruly, criminal, or even unwilling to accept majority choices that we have agreed to abide by as a society, I feel that the control that we could and should exert over our physical impulses will lead us to chaos.

I think we have a duty both individually and collectively to expect from others and exert on ourselves real self control for the good of all.

[Borg Refinery]

I didn't blame Boris exclusively. But he is a part of the problem, sorry but for me that conclusion is inescapable.

But I agree with your gist that we should care for others' wellbeing. I think a selfless society where people put others first; a society where one looks after others, means each person doesn't have to look out for themselves in such a mean and ruthless way.

There are countless factors to this, as you allude.

I think a lot of it is in society and the shift away from Christian values (trying not to mention politicians here as per your request) towards selfish individualistic values. I think that's happened so many times before.

Sometimes I think ancient English society (pre medieval) was the fairest of them all.

The more I think about my original question the more difficult it becomes. I guess through history there have always been those who kick the traces. Even in medieval times I would  be upset by the position of women so in a way I accept that things have always had to change according to beliefs and education. Maybe I need to take a step back and think it through until I have a definite point of view.

And this is why I like talking to you.

[papasmurf]

The more I think about my original question the more difficult it becomes. I guess through history there have always been those who kick the traces. Even in medieval times I would  be upset by the position of women so in a way I accept that things have always had to change according to beliefs and education. Maybe I need to take a step back and think it through until I have a definite point of view.

The government has gone to great lengths over the last 10 years to suppress dissent, and critical comment against the consequences of its policies.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/charities-warn-gagging-law-stops-them-campaigning-on-election-issues-10054889.html

https://home.38degrees.org.uk/2013/09/09/what-is-the-gagging-law/