FT: Bojo to override WA

[Borg Refinery]

"His lofty ideas failed.."

You said he wasn't a lofty idealist - I showed you he was and now you agree he was.

"Ireland is seen as a bastion today and success story of the free market western capitalistic economy you say you hate , corruption warts and all."

Where did I say I hate it? What?

"My" lofty ideal is a confederative world where everyone gets the type of society they want. I don't 'hate' capitalism or communism, I do hate racial supremacy but ultimately, if black, white, any other seperatists want a spare corner of Wales to themselves then ley them sod off and have it and leave the rest of us alone.

I recall you even endorsed my belief when I expressed it before, why are you insinuating I hate capitalist Ireland?

[Thomas]

More bullshit, Spain was not negotiating on the basis of a treaty , freely signed by them for any reason. .

spain was and is bound by eu law and human rights law , subject to both the ECHR and ECJ , all freely signed up to . Which they ignored and overrode when it suited.

Just as johnson is doing over northern ireland , and by your own admission rightly so as the eu has no right to interfere in the affairs of a soverign state.

He is perfectly allowed to rip up the WA and do whaty is in britians interests as you correctly infered the spanish did over catalonia.

What good for the goose and all tht.

[Sheepy]

Expressions such as the right to choose or suffrage, voting rights, freedom of free election have a wide coverage in the international law.So they do Sheepy, somebody forgot to tell the fecking EU.

[Thomas]

Did James Connolly Betray Socialism?

No working class unity

Despite the sacrifice of lives, the Irish working class did not emerge any the stronger from the Easter Rising. Irish nationalism has always been hostile to the workers' cause. There have been 29 general elections to the Dáil, Ireland's parliament, since independence and Ireland's Labour Party have won precisely none. When workers' interests go up against nationalism in a country where politics is all about the nation, then Labour stands little chance.

Not socialist

The Rising was not socialist by any stretch of the imagination and the legacy of Connolly's involvement has been to associate 'socialism' with Irish nationalism, and that has been most damaging to the cause of 'socialism'. He did a disservice by allying a sizeable section of the workers movement to a nationalist insurrectionary project. Sean O'Casey described the Irish Volunteers, which had been set up by the Irish Home Rulers as 'streaked with employers who had openly tried to starve the women and children of the workers, followed meekly by scabs and blacklegs from the lower elements among the workers themselves, and many of them saw in this agitation a plumrose path to good jobs, now held in Ireland by the younger sons of the English well-to-do.'

https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2016/2010s/no-1339-march-2016/did-james-connolly-betray-socialism/

[Good old]

Are you suggesting the EU has the right to interfere in the affairs of a sovereign state that happens to be a member of the EU?

thats what you and your friends like gerry are suggesting internaitonal law allows them to do when its part of the uk , like northern ireland ,while at the same time saying it isnt allowed to do so in spain.

So if they have no right to interfere in the affairs of a soversign state , then johnson has every right to tear up the WA , and take northern ireland out the eu.

Glad we cleared that up.

More bullshit, Spain was not negotiating on the basis of a treaty , freely signed by them for any reason. The status of Catalonia, within Spain had nothing to do with  the EU.
Where do the EU interfere in NI?  It is us that required an agreement. As it was us that created the situation NI finds itself in. The fact that the Irish state would be better off with an arrangement for the North , does not constitute interference, so what are you on about.

[Thomas]

Lofty idealistic ideas?

My ideas would probably be described as "mild reformist Brit imperialist apologist shite" by Connolly, if we're being 100% brutally honest with each other here.

And he - and you know this - would probably say exactly the same thing about your ideas of reforming Scotland or any referenda what-so-ever.

##Sigh##

I dont want to reform scotland. Im not wanting to stop any unfair referenda.

I simply want scotland to be an independent country. How many more times?

Im not interested in trying to reach for the feckin stars to attain some feckin left wing , right wing or centrist feckin utopia. I just want to be a normal independent country warts and feckin all.

What part of this are you no getting?

He believed the system was 100% un-reformable and nothing short of global revolution would fix anything.

right. So 104 years on from his death , and what gloable revolution has reformed the nasty unfair political and socio economic system that connllly talked about?

I mean here you are highlighting the very thing im talking about , were idealistic dreams clash with reality .......the result....reality wins.

Instead, Connolly argued that the struggle for Irish freedom needed to culminate in a workers' republic, and he advanced two main reasons why was necessary.

and what happened?

His lofty ideas failed , for many reasons that would take too long to go into detail over.

Ireland is seen as a bastion today and success story of the free market western capitalistic economy you say you hate , corruption warts and all.

See, I really do know what I'm talking about here.

Well no you dont.

What you have done is give an object lesson on the failure of lofty idealistic dreams.

Connolllys nationalism won , but his idealistic socialism failed.

[Borg Refinery]

Wait.. so...what.... we should just accept corruption as a fact of life?

And you think men like Connolly did ..when they did everything they could, incl going to America and mixing with the 'wobblies' to fight back?
.

connolly wasnt fighting for the perfect world like you. He was a nationalist fighting for ireland independence..

I told you this before , im not supporting scottish indy because of some highly idealised world view on scotland being the perfect political role model after indy , i just want a normal country  , good and the bad , like everyone else has.

Are you denying he was a lofty idealist, nay, a hardline commie at one point who wanted something very different to what you or even I want?

Are you insinuating he was somehow fighting for the perfect political world where no one does anything bad or holds unfair referendums ?

He used the feckin bomb and the gun against the irish peoples wishes at the time to fight for independence. It was only after his death public opinion turned into support for independence .

You have no idea about my life, how can you judge?

Where did i say your life?

I was generalising , not being personally specific .

I'm not a socialist, I don't want a socialist society. I've explained the type of society I wanted to live in and you thought I was taking the rise.. but it was the truth.

i didnt say you were a socialist.

You need to read behind the nuance of the connlly quote.

The point is he was saying his nationalism rather than lofty idealistic ideas you seem to be bleating about was why he was doing what he was doing.

Lofty idealistic ideas?

My ideas would probably be described as "mild reformist Brit imperialist apologist shite" by Connolly, if we're being 100% brutally honest with each other here.

And he - and you know this - would probably say exactly the same thing about your ideas of reforming Scotland or any referenda what-so-ever.

I have actually read Connolly by the way.

I remember roughly his thoughts on the matter and here, hear him saying it exactly -

The fact is not without its lesson to us here in Ireland. We too have so-called parties of reform – Home Rule in all its phases is now but a cloak for the designs of the middle class desirous of making terms with the Imperial Government it pretends to dislike. It is but capitalist Liberalism, speaking with an Irish accent. As such it is the enemy of every effort at working-class emancipation, and if the workers of Ireland as are alive to the interests of their class as are their brethren on the Continent, they will help build up that Socialist Party which is destined to march over the grave of Home Rule Liberalism to the final assault and destruction of the strongholds of oppression.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1901/evangel/socpolref.htm

He believed the system was 100% un-reformable and nothing short of global revolution would fix anything.

"When he stood for election in 1894, Connolly dismissed talk of trying to reform the system from within. On the contrary, he wrote that "the election of a socialist to any public body is only valuable insofar as it is the return of a disturber of the public peace".
"
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/james-connolly-s-vision-never-realised-1.2556902%3fmode=amp

He opposed the idea of a "union of classes" which would unite rich and poor in a fight for Irish independence. This would, its nationalist advocates suggested, bring about an Irish republic in which socio-economic relations would remain the same.

Instead, Connolly argued that the struggle for Irish freedom needed to culminate in a workers' republic, and he advanced two main reasons why was necessary.

If the working class were to really mobilise for Irish independence, Connolly suggested that they would not stop, having achieved a capitalist republic. They would go further and fight for social as well as national freedom.

To the objection that a fight for a socialist republic would frighten off potential allies, he made the following reply:

"It may be pleaded that the ideal of a Socialist Republic, implying, as it does, a complete political and economic revolution would be sure to alienate all our middle-class and aristocratic supporters, who would dread the loss of their property and privileges.

"What does this objection mean? That we must conciliate the privileged classes in Ireland! But you can only disarm their hostility by assuring them that in a free Ireland their privileges' will not be interfered with. That is to say, you must guarantee that when Ireland is free of foreign domination, the green-coated Irish soldiers will guard the fraudulent gains of capitalist and landlord from 'the thin hands of the poor' just as remorselessly and just as effectually as the scarlet-coated emissaries of England do today.
---

See, I really do know what I'm talking about here.

[Thomas]

No all we have established  is you are perfectly comfortable trying to establish the idea that it is perfectly all right for Johnson, to break international law if it gives him something he wants..

yep we did establish that. I also showed how many uk prime ministers have done the same historically right up to the modern day.

Your reply was johnson isnt allowed to break international law , and that international law allows the eu to interfere in the northern irish constituent part of the euk sovereign territory.

When i ask why they wouldnt do that for catalonia , you run a mile and im told this is against internaitonal law.

So as ever you are all over the feckin place.

One minute the eu can interfere when its in your interests , the next it cant.

It remains wrong to break the law

.

Johnson has the inalienable right to protect his countries sovereignty against an outside agressor like the eu , so he has every right to tear up the WA and keep northern ireland in the uk while ending all eu rules in a part of sovereign british territory.

[Good old]

Said none of that . You say it for me . Which is par for the course for you. It's what you wish I had said.

Good so you agree , we have established boris johnson is doing what is norm for uk prime ministers .

No all we have established  is you are perfectly comfortable trying to establish the idea that it is perfectly all right for Johnson, to break international law if it gives him something he wants. When it Is not, and can not be condoned unless you freely agree there is no point in the rule of law. And that no matter how many times  the law is broken ignored by whom so ever . It remains wrong to break the law.

[Thomas]

Are you suggesting the EU has the right to interfere in the affairs of a sovereign state that happens to be a member of the EU?

thats what you and your friends like gerry are suggesting internaitonal law allows them to do when its part of the uk , like northern ireland ,while at the same time saying it isnt allowed to do so in spain.

So if they have no right to interfere in the affairs of a soversign state , then johnson has every right to tear up the WA , and take northern ireland out the eu.

Glad we cleared that up.

[Thomas]

Said none of that . You say it for me . Which is par for the course for you. It's what you wish I had said.

Good so you agree , we have established boris johnson is doing what is norm for uk prime ministers .

[Thomas]

Wait.. so...what.... we should just accept corruption as a fact of life?

And you think men like Connolly did ..when they did everything they could, incl going to America and mixing with the 'wobblies' to fight back?
.

connolly wasnt fighting for the perfect world like you. He was a nationalist fighting for ireland independence..

I told you this before , im not supporting scottish indy because of some highly idealised world view on scotland being the perfect political role model after indy , i just want a normal country  , good and the bad , like everyone else has.

Are you denying he was a lofty idealist, nay, a hardline commie at one point who wanted something very different to what you or even I want?

Are you insinuating he was somehow fighting for the perfect political world where no one does anything bad or holds unfair referendums ?

He used the feckin bomb and the gun against the irish peoples wishes at the time to fight for independence. It was only after his death public opinion turned into support for independence .

You have no idea about my life, how can you judge?

Where did i say your life?

I was generalising , not being personally specific .

I'm not a socialist, I don't want a socialist society. I've explained the type of society I wanted to live in and you thought I was taking the rise.. but it was the truth.

i didnt say you were a socialist.

You need to read behind the nuance of the connlly quote.

The point is he was saying his nationalism rather than lofty idealistic ideas you seem to be bleating about was why he was doing what he was doing.

[Good old]

It wasn't my contribution, it was the EU's. Don't try and put it back on me. If we are finger pointing lets get stuck in, there are plenty of other skeletons in the EU cupboard.

Exactly sheep. Where were the eu when spain was breaking international law on catalonia?

Are you suggesting the EU has the right to interfere in the affairs of a sovereign state that happens to be a member of the EU? 

[Thomas]

I clearly asked what international law SPain broke, you can't as there wasn't one broke.

hang on a second. I gave you a list  earlier.

There was the legal argument put forth they broke international law on self determination. The democratically elected catalan parliament passed legisaltion to hold an indy ref , and spain ilegally blocked them from doing so.

Spains argument was it was illegal under the spanish constitution , international lawyers argued national law cannot trump international law.

Spain broke eu rules and laws on things such as allowing peacefull protest when they sent armed paramilitary groups into beat the feck out of peacefull catalan protesters. All under the horrified gaze of the free world.

Just like if Scotland tomorrow just announced it was once again a republic and looked for self determination, If the UK sent in the army they would be right to do so and the UK wouldn't be breaking any international laws. The EU and UN and nobody would do anything to help Scotland or at the time catalonia.

am i reading this right?

You call yourself irish? You are a feckin wind up merchant mate so you are.

First of al scotland has never in history been a republic , and even after indy , its doubtfull it would be a republic.

Secondly , as i earlier stated this is exactly what ireland did  , yet you know tell us its against international law for anyone to do what you did 100 years ago?

If the eu wont stand up for human rights in catalonia , then its no wonder the english want to leave the eu. You hypocritcally moan about human rights in nrothern ireland , yet are more than happy to ignore human rights abuses in catalonia when it suits?

If the UK sent in the army they would be right to do so and the UK wouldn't be breaking any international laws.

So the uk wouldnt be breaking any international law if it tried to absorb ireland back under uk rule were you seceded from? John of gwent is often talking about invading ireland , and this of course could give brexiters that final sloution to the irish border you keep bleating about by taking ireland back under uk rule and out the eu.

If you want indelendence have a vote or do what Ireland did, frustrate your opressors for not a couple of months but in our case 800 years, to the point the UK sat down with the irish and signed a legal document for ROI independence. IRL wasn't helped through that process. How far do you go back, the European's found America and grew a great nation. Should all that be give back to the indigenous Indian people, the same in Australia. You could argue that as they were the indigenous peoples. In Catalonia, were they the indigenous people for centuries as a country that Spain invaded, no they weren't.

what a load of complete waffle.

You are the one saying countires have to abide by international law one minute , then saying its ok for spain to abuse international law the next , and finally endeing on some tirade about ireland becoming independent on its own ( while you conveniently ignore it was against internaitonal law and english law) , and im simply pointing out how you are all over the place in defence of your beloved eu.

If its good enough for the paddies to break international law , then its good enough for johnson and the uk.

[Good old]

Now you are joking, that's issue , above any other cursed Blair's political career , There was outrage in the eyes of people across the political spectrum.  And would only go some way to  warn politicians to take great care in their treatment of international opinion and law.

......but ....but i thought you said the uk was well known internationally for its honour and integrity , and mr johnson is really bad , and the only person in the british government ever to break international law in the whole history of mankind?

So you agree then johnson is merely doing what many other uk prime ministers have done and ignoring international law when it suits?

Said none of that . You say it for me . Which is par for the course for you. It's what you wish I had said.