Labour Infighting Thread #423,555

[srb7677]

Thomas, you can spout your distorted shit and misrepresentations all you like.

You won't get much of a challenge because I lack the time. Coming here and debating with political enemies is no more than a hobby when I have nothing better to do.

Things are happening in my local party, victories being won against the right, all of which is more important to me than your crap. Engaging with like minded party members, getting organised for internal party votes, reaching out to and motivating like-minded members to act, is all so much more rewarding.

If we are ultimately going to take these Blairite bastards down, it will be done from the inside and from the grassroots up. It will not be achieved by listening to your bollocks and wasting hours of my time on it. I have better and more important things to do.

So go hoist your kilt and flash your bare arse to someone who cares. I am in politics to make a difference, not rant from the sidelines or waste my time on hostile and disingenuous no marks with zero influence in an insignificant corner of the internet like this. Now I have resolved not to leave, but to fight from the inside, I will be more active in that role, and will have much less time to waste here. Talking to comrades is generally far more fruitful.

So the stage is yours to spout any utter shite you choose to. I will only step up occasionally now because I have better things to do. You'll have to find someone else to hate and lie about.

[Thomas]

He won't get that - he thinks he can distance himself from his own party and its leader despite their utter duplicity in attacking other oeaders in the party; and framing them.. A shower of shite indeed..

googlebox is shit , without a doubt , but it was merely interesting watching the reaction to the starmer interview by former red wall voters.

Very interesting how more and more people are becoming increasingly vocal about his limp wristed stance on most topics and lack of any policy and thought.

I just love watching srb squirm in defence of labour.

[Thomas]

The bedroom tax came into effect on April 1st 2013, introduced by the Welfare Reform Act of 2012. Labour were not in power then. ...

So my blairite friend .Not content with using weasal words to defend starmer the blairite , you are now trying to re write history to defend gordon brown


The idea of the bedroom tax goes back to 1998 according to alistair darling , and was introduced for private sector tenants in 2007/08 , then trialled for social tenants in 2009.  All under a labour government.

The Labour Party either have a very bad or very selective memory when it comes to remembering the situation that the country was in after the last Labour Government. They choose to portray the cuts that were made and other things such as the 'bedroom tax' and Universal Credit as inventions of the Coalition Government. None of these are true.

Remember the fuss about bedroom tax which is, in truth, an iniquitous way of saving money? It was introduced in 2007 for private sector tenants and trialled in 2009 for social housing tenants. The reason that the new Government could introduce it so quickly was because everything including the legislation was already in place.

https://richardkemp.wordpress.com/2019/12/01/austerity-was-invented-by-the-labour-party/

Bedroom tax 'inspired by last Labour government'

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/85322/bedroom-tax-inspired-by-last-labour-government/

The truth is that Labour's heart was never really in this vote. You see, it's a little known fact that the Bedroom Tax, or "spare room subsidy" was actually piloted by the Labour Party all the way back in 2001. Malcolm Wicks (former Parliamentary undersecretary of state in the Department of Work & Pensions) is quoted in Hansard, saying:

    "The under-occupation pilot encourages housing benefit recipients living in under-occupied social housing to move to smaller and cheaper accommodation in order to make more efficient use of housing stock."

Say what you will about the Tories, but they are what they are – and for whatever reason, they're proud of it. They have never (convincingly anyway) tried to pretend that they are compassionate, progressive or even remotely left wing. David Cameron's party is the party of the rich, the powerful, the social elite – but we know that, and we've always known that.

The Labour Party on the other hand is far less easy to place. We know they want our votes, and we know that they're not Tories. Beyond that though, it's extremely difficult to name something concrete that Labour fundamentally disagree with the Tories on – especially given that they don't think the Bedroom Tax is "politically important".

https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/11/14/bedroom-tax-hypocrisy/

A variety of newspapers and blogs  , including the left wing bella caledonia calling you out steve as a liar .

Is there no depth you will stoop to defend blairites?

[Borg Refinery]

To illustrate my point;

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/keir-starmers-leadership-isnt-new-at-all/

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18463860.keir-starmers-dithering-big-issues-stark-contrast-fms-leadership/

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-cps-ian-tomlinson-john-worboys-a9276321.html

I mean the Jimmy Saville furore and the Rotherham F@@@ up alone should stoke srv (I'm calling him srv now, short for stevie ray vaughan) to reject Starmer and maybe Labour.

..but he won't, sadly

[Borg Refinery]

Don't tell me what I do and don't own. I do not own Blairite decisions of the past when I was not in the party and voted against it for pursuing too much Tory crap. Much as you would like to paint me into such a corner.

f**k the past. f**k tony blair.

Here and now , you are a labour supporter through and through , and by your own admission , you support the current shower of blairites headed by starmer that run your party.

He won't get that - he thinks he can distance himself from his own party and its leader despite their utter duplicity in attacking other oeaders in the party; and framing them.. A shower of shite indeed..

Bit by bit , piece by piece , we have chipped away at your pish and total diversions about not supporting blairites and the jury still being out on starmer , all to (weakly) avoid any criticism of your beloved labour.

Denial isn't just a river in egypt..

So yes i will and i am telling you politically what you do and dont own. You OWN the blairites. They are part of and in charge of your party , and you support them.

Did you see the former labour voters starmer is targeting taking the piss out of him in the red wall seats of northern england on googlebox the other day?

OK, now to be fair, gogglebox is pretty shite level reality tv - no offence, you can't extrapolate FA from that IMHO.

You are correct that Red Wall voters will invariably hate Starmer but not through that medium

Empty soundbites , confusing rhetoric and constantly dancing on the head of a pin while the fence is stuck so far up his arse its coming out his throat.

Yes he is a rabid shitebag, loon. Still no policies?

Apparently johnson calls him "captain hindsight".

Starmer fails the Gogglebox test

Yet while there are some signs the message is landing, not everyone is convinced by Sir Keir. Starmer failed the Friday night Gogglebox test - being given the thumbs down by the Channel 4 show's cast for offering no little alternative to the government's Covid policies, and then criticising after the storm:

Reviewing Starmer's performance on the Andrew Marr show, Manchester's Malone family and Blackpool's Pete and Sophie called on the Labour leader to outline 'what you would do' instead of constant hindsight. Sophie went one step further, advising Boris Johnson to call Sir Keir 'Bruce Foresight,' rather than the PM's favoured 'Captain Hindsight'.

  However, Mr S's favourite line came from Sid Siddiquis in Derby who uses a curry spice scale to rate politicians - he described Sir Keir as a 'passanda' and 'certainly not a vindaloo'. Sid's son was quick off the mark replying with 'he's not a vindaloo, but a lot of wind'.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/starmer-fails-the-gogglebox-test

The Speccy who Bojo used to work for, who hires Taki the extremely Nazi anti-semite is also utter pish and shite. I can't see how you think that's a good source.

Starmer is a lot of hot air and wind who canot convince those in his own party (except cult like dreamers and sheep like you) nor the general public at large in the very seats labour are trying to win back.

He is a rabid bellend, but I don't think gogglebox or the speccy helps prove it.

The Newstatesman and others criticising Starler would be a better bet.

[johnofgwent]

There was no bedroom tax. We had Labour to thank for a lot of that.

You really are full of shit.

The bedroom tax is a labour party invention , the snp brought in legislation in scotland to mitigate it ,( which the labour party opposed and moaned about) and labour run wales introduced it into their country. Whatever corbyns fantasy policies said about what he may do about it if voted into power , the general public didint trust him enough to vote for him and many of his policies were described as pie in the sky policies with no clear funding behind them.

The bedroom tax is Labour policy – Gordon Brown introduced it for private-sector tenants back in 2008, and the only reason the coalition's extension of it to social tenants is attracting so much more opprobrium is that the government is pursuing it with such a naked ideological hatred of the poor. Labour has even admitted that were it to be elected in 2015 it would NOT repeal the tax, merely tinker at its edges.

A lot of independence supporters are getting excited today about this clip of Labour shadow-cabinet MP Helen Goodman telling the BBC that Labour would keep the bedroom tax.

Goodman's position is that Labour WOULD still implement the hated tax, but would only penalise people for over-occupying their housing if they'd been offered smaller accommodation and refused to move. Opponents of Labour are observing the hypocrisy of the party raging against the tax in public while admitting they'd retain it,

https://wingsoverscotland.com/right-sentence-wrong-crime/

https://wingsoverscotland.com/hostages-of-the-bedroom-tax/

Labours absolute fantasy and hypocrisey on the bedroom tax has been exposed so many times over the years its laughable.

The bedroom tax came into effect on April 1st 2013, introduced by the Welfare Reform Act of 2012. Labour were not in power then. It was a measure introduced by the then Cameron-Clegg coalition, and opposed at the time by Miliband's Labour. Many in the party made the point that imposing such a penalty when no smaller properties were available was grossly unfair, so Labour's stance on that is not entirely unreasonable. But it was not introduced by any Labour government, not even Blair's.....

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/27/the-bedroom-tax-explained

Yes but ...

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/85322/bedroom-tax-inspired-by-last-labour-government/

The claim is made it was identical to.measures proposed by Labour to control spiralling housing subsidy in tbe private sector.

And there is plenty of precedent for tory theft of new labour ideas. While some on here never waste an opportunity to castigate ian duncan smith for universal credit and other welfare payment reductions, the idea was first put out there by Gordon brown and for the same reason.

[srb7677]

No I don't. I intend to use my position in the party to vote against Starmer and the Blairites at every opportunity and I will not campaign or vote for any Blairite candidate. Is that clear enough for you or do you intend to carry on lying about me?

You are a labour party member , who supports and votes ( presumably unles it tactically to keep out a tory in your constituency) for the party while starmer is in charge by your own admission.

and I will not campaign or vote for any Blairite candidate

Wriggle and another diversion. If the one and only labour candidate in your constituency was left wing , and everyone of their other candidates were handpicked blairites , you would be supporting the blairite party getting into power by voting labour in your seat.

Like your party leader ,you are merely dancing on the head of a pin constantly.

No I would not be voting for the local Labour candidate if he or she were a Blairite. And voting for a left wing candidate would not be facilitating a Blairite government because the candidate I'd be voting for would vote against Blairite policies in parliament, which would be exactly what I'd want him or her to do.

But you don't want to get it, do you!

[srb7677]

There was no bedroom tax. We had Labour to thank for a lot of that.

You really are full of shit.

The bedroom tax is a labour party invention , the snp brought in legislation in scotland to mitigate it ,( which the labour party opposed and moaned about) and labour run wales introduced it into their country. Whatever corbyns fantasy policies said about what he may do about it if voted into power , the general public didint trust him enough to vote for him and many of his policies were described as pie in the sky policies with no clear funding behind them.

The bedroom tax is Labour policy – Gordon Brown introduced it for private-sector tenants back in 2008, and the only reason the coalition's extension of it to social tenants is attracting so much more opprobrium is that the government is pursuing it with such a naked ideological hatred of the poor. Labour has even admitted that were it to be elected in 2015 it would NOT repeal the tax, merely tinker at its edges.

A lot of independence supporters are getting excited today about this clip of Labour shadow-cabinet MP Helen Goodman telling the BBC that Labour would keep the bedroom tax.

Goodman's position is that Labour WOULD still implement the hated tax, but would only penalise people for over-occupying their housing if they'd been offered smaller accommodation and refused to move. Opponents of Labour are observing the hypocrisy of the party raging against the tax in public while admitting they'd retain it,

https://wingsoverscotland.com/right-sentence-wrong-crime/

https://wingsoverscotland.com/hostages-of-the-bedroom-tax/

Labours absolute fantasy and hypocrisey on the bedroom tax has been exposed so many times over the years its laughable.

The bedroom tax came into effect on April 1st 2013, introduced by the Welfare Reform Act of 2012. Labour were not in power then. It was a measure introduced by the then Cameron-Clegg coalition, and opposed at the time by Miliband's Labour. Many in the party made the point that imposing such a penalty when no smaller properties were available was grossly unfair, so Labour's stance on that is not entirely unreasonable. But it was not introduced by any Labour government, not even Blair's.....

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/27/the-bedroom-tax-explained

[Thomas]

No I don't. I intend to use my position in the party to vote against Starmer and the Blairites at every opportunity and I will not campaign or vote for any Blairite candidate. Is that clear enough for you or do you intend to carry on lying about me?

You are a labour party member , who supports and votes ( presumably unles it tactically to keep out a tory in your constituency) for the party while starmer is in charge by your own admission.

and I will not campaign or vote for any Blairite candidate

Wriggle and another diversion. If the one and only labour candidate in your constituency was left wing , and everyone of their other candidates were handpicked blairites , you would be supporting the blairite party getting into power by voting labour in your seat.

Like your party leader ,you are merely dancing on the head of a pin constantly.

[srb7677]

Here and now , you are a labour supporter through and through , and by your own admission , you support the current shower of blairites headed by starmer that run your party.

No I don't. I intend to use my position in the party to vote against Starmer and the Blairites at every opportunity and I will not campaign or vote for any Blairite candidate. Is that clear enough for you or do you intend to carry on lying about me?

[Thomas]

There was no bedroom tax. We had Labour to thank for a lot of that.

You really are full of shit.

The bedroom tax is a labour party invention , the snp brought in legislation in scotland to mitigate it ,( which the labour party opposed and moaned about) and labour run wales introduced it into their country. Whatever corbyns fantasy policies said about what he may do about it if voted into power , the general public didint trust him enough to vote for him and many of his policies were described as pie in the sky policies with no clear funding behind them.

The bedroom tax is Labour policy – Gordon Brown introduced it for private-sector tenants back in 2008, and the only reason the coalition's extension of it to social tenants is attracting so much more opprobrium is that the government is pursuing it with such a naked ideological hatred of the poor. Labour has even admitted that were it to be elected in 2015 it would NOT repeal the tax, merely tinker at its edges.

A lot of independence supporters are getting excited today about this clip of Labour shadow-cabinet MP Helen Goodman telling the BBC that Labour would keep the bedroom tax.

Goodman's position is that Labour WOULD still implement the hated tax, but would only penalise people for over-occupying their housing if they'd been offered smaller accommodation and refused to move. Opponents of Labour are observing the hypocrisy of the party raging against the tax in public while admitting they'd retain it,

https://wingsoverscotland.com/right-sentence-wrong-crime/

https://wingsoverscotland.com/hostages-of-the-bedroom-tax/

Labours absolute fantasy and hypocrisey on the bedroom tax has been exposed so many times over the years its laughable.

[Thomas]

Don't tell me what I do and don't own. I do not own Blairite decisions of the past when I was not in the party and voted against it for pursuing too much Tory crap. Much as you would like to paint me into such a corner.

f**k the past. f**k tony blair.

Here and now , you are a labour supporter through and through , and by your own admission , you support the current shower of blairites headed by starmer that run your party.

Bit by bit , piece by piece , we have chipped away at your pish and total diversions about not supporting blairites and the jury still being out on starmer , all to (weakly) avoid any criticism of your beloved labour.

So yes i will and i am telling you politically what you do and dont own. You OWN the blairites. They are part of and in charge of your party , and you support them.

Did you see the former labour voters starmer is targeting taking the piss out of him in the red wall seats of northern england on googlebox the other day?

Empty soundbites , confusing rhetoric and constantly dancing on the head of a pin while the fence is stuck so far up his arse its coming out his throat.

Apparently johnson calls him "captain hindsight".

Starmer fails the Gogglebox test

Yet while there are some signs the message is landing, not everyone is convinced by Sir Keir. Starmer failed the Friday night Gogglebox test - being given the thumbs down by the Channel 4 show's cast for offering no little alternative to the government's Covid policies, and then criticising after the storm:

Reviewing Starmer's performance on the Andrew Marr show, Manchester's Malone family and Blackpool's Pete and Sophie called on the Labour leader to outline 'what you would do' instead of constant hindsight. Sophie went one step further, advising Boris Johnson to call Sir Keir 'Bruce Foresight,' rather than the PM's favoured 'Captain Hindsight'.

  However, Mr S's favourite line came from Sid Siddiquis in Derby who uses a curry spice scale to rate politicians - he described Sir Keir as a 'passanda' and 'certainly not a vindaloo'. Sid's son was quick off the mark replying with 'he's not a vindaloo, but a lot of wind'.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/starmer-fails-the-gogglebox-test

Starmer is a lot of hot air and wind who canot convince those in his own party (except cult like dreamers and sheep like you) nor the general public at large in the very seats labour are trying to win back.

[Borg Refinery]

So no, I will not be joining the greens just yet however much Thomas wants me to for his own dubiously motivated purposes. If we want to retain left wing policies and eventually remove Starmer without replacing him by someone even more right wing, we have to stay and fight.

Can I ask.a question Lefty?  When was the last time the UK had what you would call a left wing government? If ever? I don't mean a left wing party, I mean a leader with a left wing cabinet elected by a clear majority of the electorate.on the basis of left wing policies?

But all previous Labour governments were substantially more left wing than the New Labour aberration.

...Even Ramsey McDonald? 🤔

...Or Harold Wilson who made huge cuts to the state?

Indeed, much of our 2017 policy agenda that you'd deride as extreme was government policy in the 70s and earlier. We taxed the rich more, we had free university tuition, we had and continued to build much more social housing, we had security of tenure and rent control in the private rental sector, the essential utilities were all state owned, zero hours contracts were almost unheard of. There was no bedroom tax. We had Labour to thank for a lot of that.

And we had Nu Lab to thank for undoing it, and cuts that even Wilson made in the 70's if you go back.

I hate to agree with the garden gnome but the only 'left wing' govt we've had going back, truly was Clement Attlee.

I would say only Michael Foot-in-Mouth and Wurzel were truly 'left wing' opposition leaders of Lab in modern times; and I've had enough of Corbyn after reading about him and Hodge helping Lab cover up abuse in children's care homes in Islington, he can get buried by the ADL for all I care after that... it needs investigating by the cops. But Corbyn supporters are still people with their hearts in the right place; as you say, the 2017 manifesto was better than most...

But I'm afraid you're not historically correct srv.

Wasn't Wilson kind of like Nu Lab back then, the 2nd time he got in; surrounding himself in celebs etc?

[srb7677]

So no, I will not be joining the greens just yet however much Thomas wants me to for his own dubiously motivated purposes. If we want to retain left wing policies and eventually remove Starmer without replacing him by someone even more right wing, we have to stay and fight.

Can I ask.a question Lefty?  When was the last time the UK had what you would call a left wing government? If ever? I don't mean a left wing party, I mean a leader with a left wing cabinet elected by a clear majority of the electorate.on the basis of left wing policies?

No one ever gets elected with the support of a majority of the electorate under FPTP. But all previous Labour governments were substantially more left wing than the New Labour aberration. Indeed, much of our 2017 policy agenda that you'd deride as extreme was government policy in the 70s and earlier. We taxed the rich more, we had free university tuition, we had and continued to build much more social housing, we had security of tenure and rent control in the private rental sector, the essential utilities were all state owned, zero hours contracts were almost unheard of. There was no bedroom tax. We had Labour to thank for a lot of that.

[srb7677]

But I will not be told what to do by the likes of Thomas who hates us all anyway. I will be staying and will encourage all other left wingers to stay. But I will not campaign for, nor even vote for, any candidate who is not of the genuine left and will vote against Starmer at every opportunity.

Using the quote tags steve please quote me where i am "telling you what to do" , or who to vote for or which party to be a member of?

Im simply highlighting the complete laughable fallacy of your consistent tactic of blaming all things bad in labours history on the blairites , when by your own admission you are going to keep standing by them no matter whoever is in charge.

So no, I will not be joining the greens just yet however much Thomas wants me to for his own dubiously motivated purposes.

You talk about people twisting what you are saying while you constantly misrepresent what others are saying.

Where did i tell you to join the greens?

All the pictures and comments on this thread , along with some articles , are the comments of labour members and supporters , not me.

These are the people who have a massive problem with sir keir knight of the realm starmer , and im simply highlighting what they are saying.

Unlike you i have no dubiously motivated purpose. Every single person on this forum including you knows my politics and political aim.

Are you somehow suggesting im trying to hide my politics and purpose on here? Cause if you are , you are taking the piss. Most people on here have been on this forum and our old one for years , and know fine well my stance , which unlike you , i am open and honest about.

I wear my heart of my sleeve  ,and stand under my flag , and unlike you i dont need to slink abouit when doing so.

I keep telling you honesty is the best policy , rather than trying to pathetically toss of labours shocking record when in power to some mythical party called the blairites.

This here is your party , the party you support , and you own them and their decisions good and bad.

Don't tell me what I do and don't own. I do not own Blairite decisions of the past when I was not in the party and voted against it for pursuing too much Tory crap. Much as you would like to paint me into such a corner.