Why does God let it happen?

[DeppityDawg]

First I knew of that. I think it only happened today?
It could well be charged as a hate crime, we'll wait and see. I doubt it was a love crime, not judging by his behaviour.

Not sure about the "people like you" comment, DD. I appreciate your support and "people like you" who accept other believers for who they are.
Having a go at Nalaar when he's not in any way responsible seems a bit off

Barry, I started a thread a while back about how the reporting of "hate crime" is being manipulated. I very much doubt you'll hear any more about this. It's simply a case of "criminal damage", Move along there. There's nothing to see here. It's sickening.

I stand by my comments to Nalaar. He is typical of many liberal intellectuals. There is "more to do". They just say it, but they don't do anything. In France yesterday, tens of thousands took to the streets to protest after the murder and beheading of a teacher by a religious zealot. That could be described as doing something. But that is a false narrative too. Why the feck do we now live in a world where it is even necessary for people to protest at all because someone was beheaded in the street?

[DeppityDawg]

don't think you have the slightest idea what a 'person like me' thinks on these matters. More discussion, and less projection please.

On the contrary Nalaar, I've a fairly good idea of your attitude towards the faith of others based on your contributions to this thread and others in a similar vein. That's why I purposely wrote that I've seen nothing to change my mind (that at best double standards are at work, and at worst, deliberate ignorance) because I haven't. By your own admission, "there is work to do" when critiquing other religions than Christianity. When are we going to see this work begin? Otherwise those words are empty.

[Barry]

Here's one for you to look at Nalaar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2iXJpeJFzY

The man was arrested and charged with "criminal damage" after trying to tear down the cross on a church in East London.

This is why I take issue with people like you. Had this been a Mosque, we all know fine well the charge would have been a "hate crime". This is just one reason why I dislike and distrust liberals. The double standards and the hypocrisy are appalling. And your comments on here do nothing to change my mind.

Sorry - I'm just sick to death of it

First I knew of that. I think it only happened today?
It could well be charged as a hate crime, we'll wait and see. I doubt it was a love crime, not judging by his behaviour.

Not sure about the "people like you" comment, DD. I appreciate your support and "people like you" who accept other believers for who they are.
Having a go at Nalaar when he's not in any way responsible seems a bit off.

[Nalaar]

This is why I take issue with people like you.

I don't think you have the slightest idea what a 'person like me' thinks on these matters. More discussion, and less projection please.

[DeppityDawg]

Here's one for you to look at Nalaar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2iXJpeJFzY

The man was arrested and charged with "criminal damage" after trying to tear down the cross on a church in East London.

This is why I take issue with people like you. Had this been a Mosque, we all know fine well the charge would have been a "hate crime". This is just one reason why I dislike and distrust liberals. The double standards and the hypocrisy are appalling. And your comments on here do nothing to change my mind.

Sorry - I'm just sick to death of it

[DeppityDawg]

DD I would just point out that Jesus teaches love and forgiveness. It is often quite a difficult teaching to maintain, but the added factor of free will means that I, for one, cannot and should not expect another to value my belief. Common courtesy of course is something else.  I do believe that every Church has a degree of truth and stems from the original, and I also believe that those who deny God will at some point find themselves begging for His help. I have heard it said that even those who deny Him must have some idea that He exists in order to have the need to deny Him. I am sure there will be some who will take me to task for that point.

I agree that Christianity does seem to get the most bad press, perhaps that is because  Jesus Christ is actually the most feared as being really the Saviour of the World, and ignoring Him might be a really bad idea in the end. Only time will tell.

I know Toots. And you know I respect your faith, even though I'm not a religious man myself - what irks me is when christianity is attacked, when we all know fine well the people making those attacks would be far, far less vocal about the faith of others were it another religion that was the subject

Nalaar has admitted it to his credit.

[T00ts]

When two people of different faiths tell you they have proof that their faith is true, we have a problem.

I have had people of all sorts of faiths/religions/beliefs tell me that their position can not be understood by thinking about it etc, I find this unsatisfactory, if it satisfies you, fair enough, but it also surrenders your ability to critique others for their faith, and in cases as presented by DeppittyDawg (of beheading blasphemers) such critique is nessessery.

No I think you misunderstand. Those without faith cannot justify their critique of faith sInce they have no basis to judge  from. Those who share a faith even if it is different in substance have an immediate spiritual link that does allow critique and comparison. It is a meeting of spirit which is limitless.

[Nalaar]

You are funny    Do you not realise that faith is beyond human mental reasoning? It is a matter for the spirit not calculated reason. Once faith is accepted then 'proof' will be discovered. Not by scientific analysis but by a response not understood by those who banish it from their experience.

When two people of different faiths tell you they have proof that their faith is true, we have a problem.

I have had people of all sorts of faiths/religions/beliefs tell me that their position can not be understood by thinking about it etc, I find this unsatisfactory, if it satisfies you, fair enough, but it also surrenders your ability to critique others for their faith, and in cases as presented by DeppittyDawg (of beheading blasphemers) such critique is nessessery.

[T00ts]

No they are not equivalent. Flat-earthers are reductio ad absurdum of the position that there is an onus to not cause resentment by questioning of reasoning.

I'm not quite sure what (if anything) we disagree on about this point, unless you think some fault lies with the person who presented the cartoon?

Very much so, though there are many liberals who do it well, there are many more that hold non-Christian religions to a much lesser standard than they should.

That is not a good reason to stop critiquing the reasoning of Barry or Toots, though it is a good reason for all of us to be more publicly critical of people who support violence.

You are funny    Do you not realise that faith is beyond human mental reasoning? It is a matter for the spirit not calculated reason. Once faith is accepted then 'proof' will be discovered. Not by scientific analysis but by a response not understood by those who banish it from their experience.

[T00ts]

I think 'flat earthers' is a little unfair. Are you equating their faith to a belief that the earth is flat?

I agree. But not all religious people or people of faith condone murder. I don't think Barry or Toots do. But in this particular case, I was using it as an example of where 'liberal scorn' for religion and the faith of others might be better employed? Do you not agree?

I see. So you agree that liberals are less than willing to critique religions other than christianity?

Because in light of the above example (and there are many, many others), I would say there are plenty of reasons which aren't "poor" to critique other religions, but liberals still seem most unwilling to do so. And I would suggest those reasons might also include fear of the consequences and an entrenched political correctness that only seems to want to critique "easy" targets

And I don't like that, Nalaar. Its dishonest and dangerous. And it will lead to even more problems in the future unless "critique" is applied equally and without prejudice. The truth is Nalaar, you can easily critique Barry and Toots without much fear of them beheading you.

You should think about that

DD I would just point out that Jesus teaches love and forgiveness. It is often quite a difficult teaching to maintain, but the added factor of free will means that I, for one, cannot and should not expect another to value my belief. Common courtesy of course is something else.  I do believe that every Church has a degree of truth and stems from the original, and I also believe that those who deny God will at some point find themselves begging for His help. I have heard it said that even those who deny Him must have some idea that He exists in order to have the need to deny Him. I am sure there will be some who will take me to task for that point.

I agree that Christianity does seem to get the most bad press, perhaps that is because  Jesus Christ is actually the most feared as being really the Saviour of the World, and ignoring Him might be a really bad idea in the end. Only time will tell.

[Nalaar]

I think 'flat earthers' is a little unfair. Are you equating their faith to a belief that the earth is flat?

No they are not equivalent. Flat-earthers are reductio ad absurdum of the position that there is an onus to not cause resentment by questioning of reasoning.

I agree. But not all religious people or people of faith condone murder. I don't think Barry or Toots do. But in this particular case, I was using it as an example of where 'liberal scorn' for religion and the faith of others might be better employed? Do you not agree?

I'm not quite sure what (if anything) we disagree on about this point, unless you think some fault lies with the person who presented the cartoon?

I see. So you agree that liberals are less than willing to critique religions other than christianity?

Very much so, though there are many liberals who do it well, there are many more that hold non-Christian religions to a much lesser standard than they should.

Because in light of the above example (and there are many, many others), I would say there are plenty of reasons which aren't "poor" to critique other religions, but liberals still seem most unwilling to do so. And I would suggest those reasons might also include fear of the consequences and an entrenched political correctness that only seems to want to critique "easy" targets

And I don't like that, Nalaar. Its dishonest and dangerous. And it will lead to even more problems in the future unless "critique" is applied equally and without prejudice. The truth is Nalaar, you can easily critique Barry and Toots without much fear of them beheading you.

You should think about that

That is not a good reason to stop critiquing the reasoning of Barry or Toots, though it is a good reason for all of us to be more publicly critical of people who support violence.

[DeppityDawg]

No one likes to think they're wrong. Flat-earthers may become resentful that someone is calling into question their reasoning, that is not a good reasoning to stop trying to get flat-earthers to come into contact with reason.

I think 'flat earthers' is a little unfair. Are you equating their faith to a belief that the earth is flat?

And where does the fault lie there? I'd say it's with the murderer, and their perverse reasoning that murder was an appropriate action.

I agree. But not all religious people or people of faith condone murder. I don't think Barry or Toots do. But in this particular case, I was using it as an example of where 'liberal scorn' for religion and the faith of others might be better employed? Do you not agree?

We're somewhat conditioned against questioning religions, thankfully we seem to of cast those shackles aside when it comes to Christianity in the UK, but we have some work to do to apply it to minority religions in this country. Part of the problem is that a vocal portion of the people who want to critique these religions want to do so for poor reasons (racism, anti-Semitism etc) which makes it very natural for a person of reasonable mind to want to oppose such critiques, promoting the wrong ends for the right reasons.

I see. So you agree that liberals are less than willing to critique religions other than christianity?

Because in light of the above example (and there are many, many others), I would say there are plenty of reasons which aren't "poor" to critique other religions, but liberals still seem most unwilling to do so. And I would suggest those reasons might also include fear of the consequences and an entrenched political correctness that only seems to want to critique "easy" targets

And I don't like that, Nalaar. Its dishonest and dangerous. And it will lead to even more problems in the future unless "critique" is applied equally and without prejudice. The truth is Nalaar, you can easily critique Barry and Toots without much fear of them beheading you.

You should think about that

[Nalaar]

But I could see how attacking other peoples faiths might cause resentment.

No one likes to think they're wrong. Flat-earthers may become resentful that someone is calling into question their reasoning, that is not a good reasoning to stop trying to get flat-earthers to come into contact with reason.

For argument sake, someone showing some kids a picture of a prophet resulting in someone else beheading that person?

And where does the fault lie there? I'd say it's with the murderer, and their perverse reasoning that murder was an appropriate action.

Maybe its because we don't get many (or any) other faiths post on here. But again, for arguments sake, I see articles in liberal media like Huff Puff etc, attacking "Christians". I've never really seen that same level of "questioning" levelled at Islam for example?

We're somewhat conditioned against questioning religions, thankfully we seem to of cast those shackles aside when it comes to Christianity in the UK, but we have some work to do to apply it to minority religions in this country. Part of the problem is that a vocal portion of the people who want to critique these religions want to do so for poor reasons (racism, anti-Semitism etc) which makes it very natural for a person of reasonable mind to want to oppose such critiques, promoting the wrong ends for the right reasons.

[DeppityDawg]

No.

Ok. Its just that it appears to.

My interest in topics like this is in the reasoning, not any particular faith/religion.

I see. But by the same token, if their truth isn't "gospel", your reasoning isn't either. These days, I'm a great believer in live and let live (within reason). But I could see how attacking other peoples faiths might cause resentment. For argument sake, someone showing some kids a picture of a prophet resulting in someone else beheading that person?

The religion/faith of the poster is unimportant. Atheists with questionable reasoning should be prompted to confront it also.

Maybe its because we don't get many (or any) other faiths post on here. But again, for arguments sake, I see articles in liberal media like Huff Puff etc, attacking "christians". I've never really seen that same level of "questioning" levelled at Islam for example?

Lots of people (call me right wing *sigh*) could be concerned about this - I know its concerns me?

[Nalaar]

Does the fact that (in this case Barry and Toots) someone has faith, does it annoy you/irritate you/dismay you?

No.

You seem to spend an awful lot of time on this thread attempting to undermine (if thats the right word) their faith?

My interest in topics like this is in the reasoning, not any particular faith/religion.

If I were a Muslim (or a Sikh or a Jew), would you expend similar amounts of effort undermining my faith? Its just an observation. I seem to see left wing liberals attacking christians off the bat, but I see far less (if any) attacks on other faiths?

The religion/faith of the poster is unimportant. Atheists with questionable reasoning should be prompted to confront it also.