Peak Irish Anti-English Sentiment?

[GerryT]

Each new 19 or 20 year old arriving hadn't caused her pain, yet within days he'd learn he had a target on his back. Is it any surprise they hated the Irish back? Like I've said before, no one comes out of it with much to be proud of, Gerry. Hate breeds hate. And so the cycle repeated. We've been over it before, and theres nothing to be gained from dragging over it again. We all know its over. Like you said, we forgive, but we never forget. That includes everyone who lost their friends and loved ones.

If your there as a soldier they you are the same as any other soldier to locals. You also represent a country that has caused much pain in Ireland via soldiers and thugs like the black and tans. Today NI is a very different place, I'm not sure if you would recognise the place. There are still areas that "feel" very Unionist or Republican but it's far less in your face.
People on the island of Ireland care and don't want those days returning, hopefully things pan out that way, bt it is a hard battle trying to stop Johnson putting a wrecking ball through things.

I understand your sentiment, but I don't need to look at anyone, Gerry. I never voted to leave the EU. Take it up with those that did, not me.

Fair enough

[cromwell]

Usually the way of things, if I was them, I wouldn't start handing out threats, or it might backfire big time.

Well when I see the name Eoghan the only picture I get in my Mind is Harry Hill taking the Michael,quickly followed by Louis Walsh doing a Hitler salute confirming indeed that the Irish supported the Nazis.

More seriously and back to topic this whole charade is just more attempts to discredit brexit and paint a portrait of negativity of those who support it.

https://youtu.be/uA7O3Pnb7EQ

[Sheepy]

Westminster has been behind a lot of it.

Usually the way of things, if I was them, I wouldn't start handing out threats, or it might backfire big time.

[DeppityDawg]

Fair point, I grew up in Dublin, 70miles from the border and 100miles from Belfast. Never a days trouble and a very peaceful and quiet upbringing so no sense of what it was like growing up in NI.
What you need to ask yourself is what would drive a woman to spit or throw sanitary towels at you. What was done to her or her family or her parents to cause that hatred.

Each new 19 or 20 year old arriving hadn't caused her pain, yet within days he'd learn he had a target on his back. Is it any surprise they hated the Irish back? Like I've said before, no one comes out of it with much to be proud of, Gerry. Hate breeds hate. And so the cycle repeated. We've been over it before, and theres nothing to be gained from dragging over it again. We all know its over. Like you said, we forgive, but we never forget. That includes everyone who lost their friends and loved ones.

Not all people in the UK think like this, bit you should look at what the UK govt is doing and it's obvious to see why the likes of the USA and all of the EU are supporting the Irish position.

I understand your sentiment, but I don't need to look at anyone, Gerry. I never voted to leave the EU. Take it up with those that did, not me.

[Borchester]

..according to these opinion pieces, yes. (first is limited by subscription and I don't have one so can't paste - but it helps my case).

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/brexit-has-emboldened-casual-anti-englishness-among-the-irish-1.4412791?mode=amp

The second is more detailed;

https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/sunday-independent-ireland/20201122/284090619078305

^ It is a horrifying article. The state of the Irish media is terrible if that's to be believed.

I have received some incredible abuse for being simply English and not 'hating' England enough, from other Europhiles. That's expected because I'm a completely obnoxious can't with a loud mouth, but it wasn't fair to the other quieter more nice English people I've seen abused simply for being English.

I hope Gerry will clarify whether the report's bs or not, because if true, it is rather disturbing, then again all our countries are reaching peak levels of xenophobia, mistrust and mutual loathing. We seem to loathe each other in this country right now as we do any others - wear a mask where I live and you actually get filthy looks and shouty comments(!). It's all gotten feckin ridiculous..

Ignore it. It is only the Irish Times which has a circulation of six and a half (l read it but only when I find a copy in Sainsbury's that I can brows for free) and truly thinks that the purpose of Brexit is to re establish the British Empire or some such bollocks.

The point about Ireland is that Gerry's fantasy of a nation of yeomen pig farmers is forty years out of date. The Republic is currently a tax haven and its main interest is not Brexit, but the prospect of Gaga Joe cocking up the US economy. If that happens a lot of American firms will move to the Emerald Isle and all will be well in Mick Land.

[GerryT]

No need to apologize to anyone, General. Its a fair thread. Its been said by remainers constantly that Brexit would cause division and lead to the break up of the Union, so its not really a surprise, or it shouldn't be. Thats not to say its the answer either, its just a fact of life. Hate does breed hate

I understand Gerry's points. I don't really blame him for the way (that he tries to hide) he feels. It just pisses me off that on the one hand he complains about his business suffering, and on the other pretends that he's totally impartial about it all. He's no more impartial than the Brexiters. If he doesn't want to be 'fwiends', I can live with it, and I think the rest of us can. I don't know why he can't just be honest about it and say the way he feels.

At this stage I've mitigated most of the risks bar one product that I really don't want to drop for a EU substitute. All of this extra work has forced me to take this course but thankfully even a hard brexit will have little affect on my business from a product perspective. Its hard to say how I feel, I have friends ad family in the UK. I really look forward to sporting events like the 6 nations or lions and shout support for UK players. On the other hand I have a problem with how the leaders of the UK have carried out Brexit, it's like Johnson sees there has to be a winner and looser and if he can inflict damage to the EU that's a great thing.  Brexit could have been done so differently.

[GerryT]

I'm not sure what the point here is? Are we saying we are surprised that [some/most] Irish hate us - or are we saying we aren't?

I've experienced more than my fair share of it to be fair - although I'd say it was mostly Anti-British, rather than Anti-English. I'll always remember the immortal line "gae on hame, Braddish sol-ders" muttered by old ladies and teenagers alike. Always said in a particular way, that gave you the impression it was centuries old. Spat at in the face regularly, cursed in both Gaelic and English, sometimes non stop. Used sanitary towels and excrement being thrown. It was preferable to battery acid and half bricks at least. It was standard practice to remove the sling from the L1 if you were down the Falls/Divis, Ardoyne, Turf Lodge etc. Stop kids riding past on bikes and trying to snatch it out of your hands. Standard hand gestures of course, then ones like the thumb and forefinger to the head, like a handgun - they weren't joking either. Calling cards - "Welcome to Andersonstown" or where ever "your stay won't be fun". That's just some of it.

That said, there were others who broke that mold. Incredible kindness and humility sometimes. And sometimes it was funny, if not actual fun. Like picking up Shamus and co on the border runs, and those VCP corkers where all you could do was laugh.

I suppose there are few countries with more reason to hate the Brits than Ireland. Did we hate them? Yeah, mostly. Thats the thing isn't it, when you are trying to assimilate the past in current feelings. We didn't know what Cromwell (the real one) or the Duke of Crustyfeck did back in sixteen umpty nine. Before I went I was ambivilent. By the time you'd been there a few weeks, you didn't give a shit anymore either. You just wanted to get out of the place.

I do know though, that all hate achieves is to breed more of it

Fair point, I grew up in Dublin, 70miles from the border and 100miles from Belfast. Never a days trouble and a very peaceful and quiet upbringing so no sense of what it was like growing up in NI.
What you need to ask yourself is what would drive a woman to spit or throw sanitary towels at you. What was done to her or her family or her parents to cause that hatred.

It doesn't matter who started it what matters is the GFA stopped it. It was a brilliant compromise that has satisfied both communities in NI. Children born today will hopefully grow up in an environment that I did.

It has been pointed out to the UK Govt that placing a border in IRL will break that peace, there is still people alive that grew up watching their friends, family and community torn apart by the UK. The ROI Govt, the police in NI and other countries involved have all stated that peace is at threat. This is one of the big reasons people in Ireland are getting rightly pissed off with Johnson and the lying toad Gove. Coming out with the nonsense that the UK isn't going to put up a border. It really comes across that the UK are sneering at Ireland and don't care one bit what happens, sure their only Irish let them kill each other the fools.

Not all people in the UK think like this, bit you should look at what the UK govt is doing and it's obvious to see why the likes of the USA and all of the EU are supporting the Irish position.

[GerryT]

By the way, it must be mentioned that Ireland hasn't always been so perfect where we discuss WWII (and neither were we - look up the Bengal famine to show balance here).

Pre WWII, in the 30's, like most countries in the west, including us for much of it, you were appeasing Hitler and were very flattering towards them, just read an Irish Times piece about Valera; and btw the IRA actually went further -
I guess the source if probably pro-English being from here https://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/frankryan/InterpretativeResources/HistoricalContext/IrishRepublicanismandNaziGermany/

But still, if true, very bad.

No that's true, in the early '20s there was a civil war in Ireland, the new ROI free state was still part of the empire was formed from the IRA and new local political leaders. But the IRA split, with those hardened IRA members not happy with the partitioning of Ireland. This "new" IRA were a different animal to one's pre 1920, in their eyes Germany would provide the means to get the UK out of Ireland entirely. Even if Germany occupied IRL it was thought a far better fate than being occupied by the UK. But as the 30's and 40's went by even the IRA became very divided on the subject with those hell bent on getting the UK out of Ireland and using any means possible and others arguing that supporting a country that was itself engaged in oppressing other countries was a step too far. That prob shows the level of hatred these people had for the UK which they developed at the hands of UK oppression and treatment.

So it seems unfair to have a go as if we were so much worse than you, in modern history post the establishment of the Free State, when you fellas were engaged in the kind of standard corrupt western politics that we and the yanks etc were engaged in.

Now that's a stretch, there's no comparison with the UK going around invading countries, taking what they want and treating the local population like slaves. The Irish free state as you put it were "at war" with the newly formed IRL, they were hunted men in what's now the ROI. The ROI didn't in any way support Germany, the ROI had accepted the partitioning of Ireland as a means to further the islands freedom. It was the Irish free state that found and scuppered the IRA & German invasion plan through NI into GB.
Today you still have many Irish that would spit on the current IRA, there are others that would support their ideology of a united island. And like I said the IRA of 1950's were themselves divided on the German link. But there's no denying it was there.

I feel the IRA were more than justified in their objectives up til about the 30's where they clearly became deeply corrupt, and more of a gangster organization. That doesn't excuse the brutality of the Brit colonial regime in Ulster but you can't paint them out as freedom fighters post the 30's, but they were once upon a time.

Sort of. That period the IRA would have taken any help and given any help to an enemy of the UK, it that brought about the removal of the UK from Ireland.

But following that the IRA really did start to vanish, normal life resumed and people just wanted to get on with things. In 1945 what was left and there really wasn't much called a ceasefire with the UK. It wasn't until the '60's and the UK having internment without trial and all other sorts of civil liberty repression did the Irish in NI start to fight back. 1969 saw the provisional IRA, another breakaway group form and because of the UK dreadful treatment of the Irish in NI for nearly 50yrs did the troubles as their called really kick off. If the UK had treated the Unionist and Nationalist communities the same in NI from the 1920's then it's possible the P-IRA wouldn't have formed and all the deaths from 1969 would have been served. They (PIRA) are a guerrilla style force and again any financial support to help their aim was fair game.

[GerryT]

Oh gosh, wondered if you were exaggerating but no -

https://www.broadsheet.ie/tag/eoghan-harris/

He is a sicko; didn't realize I was quoting such a tabloid hack sicko. What an embarrassing display, it's a good lesson in being careful about one's sources.

OK point taken, I should have left it at Harris is a journalist that takes a look at matters from a different perspective, I did say this was a good thing for a Journalist. In regard the bloody Sunday commemoration I think his point is wrong.
In relation to the David Norris story I would support Norris, I don't think there was any harm there. When I read about Harris and his support for under age sex I didn't realise it was that story he was covering, and incorrectly concluded it was about sexual predators, my mistake.

Yep..

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit-border-checks-may-cause-dublin-traffic-problems-1.4413715%3fmode=amp

It's about Dublin ports..

It makes sense when put like that. I was thinking of IRL exports and didn't see how that would be delayed in Dublin. But the article is leaving out an important factor. Currently the majority of imports to IRL from EU cross the UK and ferry to IRL. If there are delays at Irish ports then these shipments can come direct from the EU and most likely will change route. Especially as ferry ports in the UK are likely to be dealing with their own issues with Europe.

This still leaves about 20% of IRL imports that come from the UK, so your prob right there will be an issue, and yes initially it sounds like there will be backlogs. But then there is a second factor not mentioned in the article. People that import from suppliers in the UK will see a disruption to their business, some will just have to live with it but others will have a choice to change supplier to one based in Europe and ship direct to Ireland. I kow of a number of small businesses that have alternate suppliers lined up in Europe but they want to stay with their UK one's because of strong relationships. Bt if the deal struck leaves tariffs, paperwork, delays they will move quickly.

They are doing things as we speak to mess this up so don't count your chickens yet.

Btw what about the subject?

Don't you see any merit in the premise of the other article? I know Eoghan is some warped sick journo hack but are you saying there's no poisonous sentiment towards us over Brexit in Ireland?

Quote (selected)
Brexit has emboldened casual anti-Englishness among the Irish
Finn McRedmond: Nastier impulses of nationalism are increasing in scale
Finn McRedmond
Since Brexit established itself as a mainstay of political discourse, we have been treated to all manner of tedious diplomatic mudslinging. Barnier versus Boris; Dublin versus London; England versus Scotland.

I do think in sectors of IRL there has always been an anti English sentiment, it's not there for the Scots or Welsh but it is for the Northern Unionists. That level of feeling I don't think has changed much but it has been brought to the surface because of Brexit. What might be seen in the UK is this feeling, maybe the English don't understand that the events of our countries pasts have caused this.

But on top of that what your experiencing going through the brexit process, I think is the realisation of where the UK sits in the world stage, from the outside looking in it seems that some in the UK (not all) are under the impression that the UK is a superpower like the USA, China or EU, it was but it's not anymore. It also looks like some would like to go back to the good empire days and the EU is stopping the British from achieving that goal. So when the I and others point out what we think are realities (new FTA's that are worse that what they have, costs outside the EU far in excess of being inside, loss of business due to trade barriers etc...) this is somehow seen as brit bashing. It really isn't, its just my take on what reality will be in 2021 and beyond. I think UK expectations are too high and need to be lowered. But that's my opinion, not really a new poisonous sentiment.

It's how cumming's orchestrate a win, pulling on the heart strings of people yearning for things to improve. People that have been fed tripe for decades blaming the EU on all of the UK failings and misfortune, hence the big red bus and sovereignty arguments. Even the fish which represent a tiny percentage of the UK economy, but it's a symbol of the UK telling the EU how things will be. They were all quite cleaver arguments. The real issue for the UK is services as it's 80% of the UK market but that seldom get's discussed, why ?

[DeppityDawg]

I think he's mostly upfront about it isn't he? Not sure really.

Looking back over the thread, I guess my hysterical tone aimed at westminster etc probably didn't help and makes me a hypocrite. Oh well. 

Anyway, they say even the signs have it in for us...

Some of the things he's said in the past have tripped him up. But anyway, my point was, does it really matter? There's always been hate in these Islands, long before Brexit or the EU was even thought of. All that's done is just given us something else to squabble over

No, I don't think its hypocritical at all. Westminster has been behind a lot of it. I was just unsure about why we all seem surprised. Hate is becoming the currency of modern politics anyway

[Borg Refinery]

No need to apologize to anyone, General. Its a fair thread. Its been said by remainers constantly that Brexit would cause division and lead to the break up of the Union, so its not really a surprise, or it shouldn't be. Thats not to say its the answer either, its just a fact of life. Hate does breed hate

I understand Gerry's points. I don't really blame him for the way (that he tries to hide) he feels. It just pisses me off that on the one hand he complains about his business suffering, and on the other pretends that he's totally impartial about it all. He's no more impartial than the Brexiters. If he doesn't want to be 'fwiends', I can live with it, and I think the rest of us can. I don't know why he can't just be honest about it and say the way he feels.

I think he's mostly upfront about it isn't he? Not sure really.

Looking back over the thread, I guess my hysterical tone aimed at westminster etc probably didn't help and makes me a hypocrite. Oh well. 

Anyway, they say even the signs have it in for us...

[Borg Refinery]

Here is a shovel, it might not be a JCB but it still digs holes.

Thanks, but I feel you might need it more; I always did picture you as an Irish navvy. 

[DeppityDawg]

It wasn't either of those, it was just a question aimed at Gerry about if he thinks it's increased due to Brexit.

The (blood chilling) tale you shared and crom's posts, as well as Gerry's I guess points to the deeper things going on here, which I, like a fairly naive blundering idiot, blundered right past unthinkingly. This uh, thread wasn't really intended to stir up deep feelings of bitterness and hatred, but it clearly has and that wasn't what was intended at all.. that tale you shared is certainly quite blood chilling but a real insight...

Anyway I'm sorry if you felt I was stirring up hatred as I can see you're clearly having a real go at me there and it really wasn't what I had hoped for, the whole thread I mean.

No need to apologize to anyone, General. Its a fair thread. Its been said by remainers constantly that Brexit would cause division and lead to the break up of the Union, so its not really a surprise, or it shouldn't be. Thats not to say its the answer either, its just a fact of life. Hate does breed hate

I understand Gerry's points. I don't really blame him for the way (that he tries to hide) he feels. It just pisses me off that on the one hand he complains about his business suffering, and on the other pretends that he's totally impartial about it all. He's no more impartial than the Brexiters. If he doesn't want to be 'fwiends', I can live with it, and I think the rest of us can. I don't know why he can't just be honest about it and say the way he feels.

[Sheepy]

Here is a shovel, it might not be a JCB but it still digs holes.

[Borg Refinery]

I'm not sure what the point here is? Are we saying we are surprised that [some/most] Irish hate us - or are we saying we aren't?

It wasn't either of those, it was just a question aimed at Gerry about if he thinks it's increased due to Brexit.

The (blood chilling) tale you shared and crom's posts, as well as Gerry's I guess points to the deeper things going on here, which I, like a fairly naive blundering idiot, blundered right past unthinkingly. This uh, thread wasn't really intended to stir up deep feelings of bitterness and hatred, but it clearly has and that wasn't what was intended at all.. that tale you shared is certainly quite blood chilling but a real insight...

Anyway I'm sorry if you felt I was stirring up hatred as I can see you're clearly having a real go at me there and it really wasn't what I had hoped for, the whole thread I mean.