Poverty?

[Thomas]

Which is why I asked the question. Are we as a nation more conscious of poverty and where does that line start? Unless we can agree where poverty properly starts how can we properly deal with it? As an independent nation perhaps we will get a better way forward.

I have family in many differing countries toots , the USA , France, Scotland , England  , Northern ireland and many others  , and poverty rates and perception of poverty doesnt seem to be much different in many of them.

Sure they all have problems specific to their location and culture and of course governance , but i just get heartily sick to death with this portrayal of everywhere else being great and scotland and england being shite.

Seems to be the same problems in many of the countries across the western world , with the same arguments and same naively idealistic solutions.

[Thomas]

The real poverty is that of those that work or try to work full time or more but find themselves trapped between the rock of zero hours contracts or other low wage rates and the hard place of sky high rip off rents.

I agree with this , and this in particular is a problem in england( dont know about wales)

Remember in scotland the labour party voted against things like the scot gov providing free school meals for kids in the first few years of primary , and then voted against things like ending right to buy.

Then they stand and scream about tory austerity , and their cheerleaders like smurf was on our old forum bragging years ago how he sold his ex council flat in buckinghamshire and made a mint out of it now on here bleating about the poor under the tories when that old can't is part of the problem.

Quite happy to take adavantge of thatchers disasterous right to buy scheme which played a long term part in what we see today , but less willing to take personal responsibility , prefering to cast all blame at the tories.

Tell me sampan , has labour ended poverty in wales despite being in power since 1999?

As we find with many of these lefties , easy to carp about the poor from the sidelines  , but less easy to provide solutions when in power.

we did a crackng thread on housing problems in the uk , on the old forum a few years back ,and john of gwent in particlur made some great contributions from memory.

[T00ts]

There are a few people like that they get counselling and advice if they are referred to a food bank.
However the majority just do not have enough income to cover necessary outgoings.
A very significant number of those are due to delays in benefit because of incompetence and a hostile environment by the DWP/JobCentre Plus.
They get help with that as well.

OK so what you are saying is that there are those who put their money towards the wrong things and delays are the cause for others, not that there is necessarily too little. For those incapable perhaps they were better off when rents were paid direct to the landlords, but there does seem an argument for kids to have financial management training before they leave school. Even at uni they need to manage their funds. Would you agree that that might be a way forward?

Tbf Tootsie, what were you thinking off? It was.simply asking for it using a thread title like that 

I knew that but fear of asking a question goes against my life mantra which has always been - feel the fear and do it anyway! In any case I have found that when a question is really followed through answers are often made clearer. Anyway my Daddy told me always ask if I wasn't sure...!   

Its interesting though , while pappy and the ususal suspects scream about how bad the uk is , and how crap the scot/anglo government are at dealing with it ( labour of course would provide the utopia the poor crave despite not managing it in 13 years in power) the last figures i saw showed the uk compared to the heaven on earth eu 27.

In 2017 , the uk was 12th highest in the poverty league table out of 28 , but only  20th  highest on the persistent poverty league table out of 28.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/articles/persistentpovertyintheukandeu/2017

Recently over i in five germans under the age of 18 lived in what is classed as poverty , with many other european countries faring similar , and all countries are exepcting mass increase in poverty due to the covid crises.

so its interesting how the uk compares to the grass that is always greener on the other side.

Which is why I asked the question. Are we as a nation more conscious of poverty and where does that line start? Unless we can agree where poverty properly starts how can we properly deal with it? As an independent nation perhaps we will get a better way forward.

[Sheepy]

There is real poverty in the UK and all too often it is not the parasites that know how to milk the benefit system or the feckless that get themselves into trouble through their own wilful stupidity.

The real poverty is that of those that work or try to work full time or more but find themselves trapped between the rock of zero hours contracts or other low wage rates and the hard place of sky high rip off rents.
This poverty is real as those trapped in it have no other options and find themselves at the mercy of both the worst employers and the lousiest landlords.

We were all brought up to believe that you should work hard and that if you do, that work pays. Sadly this is no longer the case and that a few are able to become fabulously wealthy on the backs of it is a national disgrace. This is not a party issue as the roots go back to the nineties (if not earlier) and we have had governments of all colours and hues in that time.
The trouble is that too many of our law makers are directly benefiting from the status quo or are advocates for those so doing. Expect a lot of handwringing from all sides but mysteriously, very little happening to make change for the better.

I guess you are saying it is the wealth gap that is out of control then.

[Thomas]

Kindly don't swear at me! Mmmm Illustrations? The ones I have come across simply don't know or understand how money works and have little idea of budgeting. Perhaps you know others.

Its interesting though , while pappy and the ususal suspects scream about how bad the uk is , and how crap the scot/anglo government are at dealing with it ( labour of course would provide the utopia the poor crave despite not managing it in 13 years in power) the last figures i saw showed the uk compared to the heaven on earth eu 27.

In 2017 , the uk was 12th highest in the poverty league table out of 28 , but only  20th  highest on the persistent poverty league table out of 28.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/articles/persistentpovertyintheukandeu/2017

Recently over i in five germans under the age of 18 lived in what is classed as poverty , with many other european countries faring similar , and all countries are exepcting mass increase in poverty due to the covid crises.

so its interesting how the uk compares to the grass that is always greener on the other side.

[DeppityDawg]

Kindly don't swear at me! Mmmm Illustrations? The ones I have come across simply don't know or understand how money works and have little idea of budgeting. Perhaps you know others.

Tbf Tootsie, what were you thinking off? It was.simply asking for it using a thread title like that 

[Sampanviking]

There is real poverty in the UK and all too often it is not the parasites that know how to milk the benefit system or the feckless that get themselves into trouble through their own wilful stupidity.

The real poverty is that of those that work or try to work full time or more but find themselves trapped between the rock of zero hours contracts or other low wage rates and the hard place of sky high rip off rents.
This poverty is real as those trapped in it have no other options and find themselves at the mercy of both the worst employers and the lousiest landlords.

We were all brought up to believe that you should work hard and that if you do, that work pays. Sadly this is no longer the case and that a few are able to become fabulously wealthy on the backs of it is a national disgrace. This is not a party issue as the roots go back to the nineties (if not earlier) and we have had governments of all colours and hues in that time.
The trouble is that too many of our law makers are directly benefiting from the status quo or are advocates for those so doing. Expect a lot of handwringing from all sides but mysteriously, very little happening to make change for the better.

[patman post]

That 60% median is no longer being used. But even using that there are many millions below it:-

Chart on page 3.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/875261/households-below-average-income-1994-1995-2018-2019.pdf

The text alongside doesn't appear to contradict what I posted:

Main Findings
The presence of large numbers of individuals with relatively high incomes results in a skewed or non-symmetric distribution. As a result, the median income (£514 per week) is the standard measure of average income as changes in the mean can be driven by extreme values. The median represents the income of the individual in the middle of the distribution.
There are a large number of individuals with household incomes around the 60% of median income mark (£308 per week). Those falling below this line are considered to have relative low income. As a result of the clustering around this income level, relatively small movements in the overall distribution can sometimes lead to sizeable movements in this low income measure.

[papasmurf]

Kindly don't swear at me! Mmmm Illustrations? The ones I have come across simply don't know or understand how money works and have little idea of budgeting. Perhaps you know others.

There are a few people like that they get counselling and advice if they are referred to a food bank.
However the majority just do not have enough income to cover necessary outgoings.
A very significant number of those are due to delays in benefit because of incompetence and a hostile environment by the DWP/JobCentre Plus.
They get help with that as well.

[T00ts]

FFC Toots, you are joking, ones that keep the roof over your head and stop the utilities being cut off.  A claimants rent has not been fully paid for years as part of Tory austerity giving  the responsibility to local authorities and underfunding it.  Most local authorities cap it an 70%-75% of local median rent and only paying 70% of that.

Kindly don't swear at me! Mmmm Illustrations? The ones I have come across simply don't know or understand how money works and have little idea of budgeting. Perhaps you know others.

[papasmurf]

When you lack the mother wit to obtain either.

Locally if people are shoplifting food the police refer them to a food bank.

[Borchester]

When you have no food and no money to buy any.

When you lack the mother wit to obtain either.

[papasmurf]

The threshold for relative poverty is set at 60% of the average (median) net household income* in the year in the year in question. This threshold can fluctuate from one year to the next.

The threshold for absolute poverty is set at 60% of the average (median) net household income in 2010/11. This threshold does not fluctuate over time.
https://www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk/2020/06/22/fact-checking-claims-about-child-poverty/#:~:text=In%20the%20UK%2C%20there%20are%20two%20definitions%20of,the%20average%20%28median%29%20net%20household%20income%20in%202010%2F11.

That 60% median is no longer being used. But even using that there are many millions below it:-

Chart on page 3.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/875261/households-below-average-income-1994-1995-2018-2019.pdf

[patman post]

I'm probably sticking my neck out but what actually constitutes poverty in this country?

The threshold for relative poverty is set at 60% of the average (median) net household income* in the year in the year in question. This threshold can fluctuate from one year to the next.

The threshold for absolute poverty is set at 60% of the average (median) net household income in 2010/11. This threshold does not fluctuate over time.

* Net household income means after taking into account taxes paid and benefits received

While the falls in income caused by Covid-19 would naturally be expected to increase levels of absolute poverty, their effect on the level of relative poverty may be more complex, and will depend on how the entire distribution of income has been affected

https://www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk/2020/06/22/fact-checking-claims-about-child-poverty/#:~:text=In%20the%20UK%2C%20there%20are%20two%20definitions%20of,the%20average%20%28median%29%20net%20household%20income%20in%202010%2F11.

[Thomas]

FFC Toots, you are joking, ones that keep the roof over your head and stop the utilities being cut off.  A claimants rent has not been fully paid for years as part of Tory austerity giving  the responsibility to local authorities and underfunding it.  Most local authorities cap it an 70%-75% of local median rent and only paying 70% of that.

do you still rent your old council flats in buckinghamshire back to dss tenants making a mint out of their abject misery pappy , or have you now sold everything off to live the lifestyle you have become accustomed to in cornwall?