Brexit "party" standing down

[Nick]

What points do you want me to respond to?  It seems like you're moving the goalposts a bit here — trying to shift the conversation rather than tackling the opinion I have explained to you that you are not actually a true conservative.



I care about British democracy, as I care about democracy anywhere else in the world. I think the Leave campaign was the greatest con ever perpetrated against the British electorate, and will go down in history as such.  Democracy built on lies and fantasies is not democracy — it is a sham.  When I see democracy being turned into a sham, I am inclined to be opposed to the sham.



And if we are talking about caring about eachother as neighboring countries, you have literally just said that Brexit will hurt Ireland more than any other country in the world.  Do you care about that?

Not once have you acknowledged that 17.4 million people voted to leave and that is the will of the people, all I hear is that we either didn't know what we were doing or it was a dirty campaign. For once acknowledge that a democratic process was undertook and leave won.



Secondly, of course I care that SI will suffer, they are thoroughly decent people and I have always had the greatest of time there, but Varadkar has tried to play hard ball whilst hanging onto mummy's apron. He needs to decide on how he is going to play the end game, the EU always looks after the EU and a net zero contributor could look like a decent trade off to keep their biggest market.



Thirdly, you disregarded the fact I said that lower taxes under the Conservatives enhances by business.

[Conchúr]

Great, but please respond to the points I pointed out to you.

What points do you want me to respond to?  It seems like you're moving the goalposts a bit here — trying to shift the conversation rather than tackling the opinion I have explained to you that you are not actually a true conservative.



I care about British democracy, as I care about democracy anywhere else in the world. I think the Leave campaign was the greatest con ever perpetrated against the British electorate, and will go down in history as such.  Democracy built on lies and fantasies is not democracy — it is a sham.  When I see democracy being turned into a sham, I am inclined to be opposed to the sham.



And if we are talking about caring about eachother as neighboring countries, you have literally just said that Brexit will hurt Ireland more than any other country in the world.  Do you care about that?

[Nick]

Yes, but how does Brexit make you more competitive?



Ultimately, you are telling me right now that you are a capitalist and a conservative. So, as a businessman, if your business has enjoyed success and one of your employees or a business partner comes to you and says "We have been successful lately but I want to radically change the entire model" — would you not be inclined to ask that person for the detail behind their proposal? Wouldn't your first concern be, primarily, not to risk harm to your business unless there is a solid tangible rationale for believing that the risk is worth it?  These are hallmarks of Conservatism. These are hallmarks of commercial capitalist thinking — where you innovate and take risks on a foundation of informed strategic decision-making . . . . not blind leaps of faith.



But for some reason, when it comes to Brexit, the analogy seems to flip in your case. The guy in the boardroom is telling you how successfully you've been doing but nonetheless he wants to radically alter the business model. He provides you with no evidence of why, in hard detail, it's beneficial or how he thinks it will affect the company. You are just taking his word for it — and I don't see how that fits into your professed view of conservative capitalism.

Great, but please respond to the points I pointed out to you.

[Conchúr]

Don't try and kid a kidder, never in history  has a slowdown ever been referred to as an upturn, let's set that one in stone.



I do call my self a Conservative and as per my 1st post in the other place I also refer to my self as a capitalists, almost to the point of being callous.



And as you ask, I support the government on many levels. Lower Corporation tax which makes me more competitive, lower tax thresholds, the list goes on. But ultimately they are the only party that can realistically deliver what the majority of the population voted for, what I voted for.



Democracy..... No disrespect but you're not interested in UK democracy, you're here because Brexit will hurt S.I far more than any country on the planet, FACT.



As for an impact assessment, I can 100% assure you that this government has done an impact assessment. That assessment has told them that they do what the BOSS says or they are fired.

Yes, but how does Brexit make you more competitive?



Ultimately, you are telling me right now that you are a capitalist and a conservative. So, as a businessman, if your business has enjoyed success and one of your employees or a business partner comes to you and says "We have been successful lately but I want to radically change the entire model" — would you not be inclined to ask that person for the detail behind their proposal? Wouldn't your first concern be, primarily, not to risk harm to your business unless there is a solid tangible rationale for believing that the risk is worth it?  These are hallmarks of Conservatism. These are hallmarks of commercial capitalist thinking — where you innovate and take risks on a foundation of informed strategic decision-making . . . . not blind leaps of faith.



But for some reason, when it comes to Brexit, the analogy seems to flip in your case. The guy in the boardroom is telling you how successfully you've been doing but nonetheless he wants to radically alter the business model. He provides you with no evidence of why, in hard detail, it's beneficial or how he thinks it will affect the company. You are just taking his word for it — and I don't see how that fits into your professed view of conservative capitalism.

[Nick]

I was commenting on the slowdown you cited from 2010, which you hold to be due to Tory rule.  I'm not disputing whether that's factual, semi-factual or just luck — but I am pointing out that it was achieved during EU membership.



As for my "ridiculous muse", I don't really understand why it's not worth commenting on.  You call yourself a conservative and yet support a government which is adopting a radical economic shift and displaying no sign that it really understands what it's adtually doing or intends to do.  Hell, I'm not even arguing in this particular thread with you on whether success was achieved because or in spite of the EU .......but what I am arguing is that it is very very strange for a self-described conservative to praise the successes of the Conservative government and react to that success by being totally fine with the current government radically altering the country's economic model without even so much as an impact assessment.



That to me is not Conservatism at all.

Don't try and kid a kidder, never in history  has a slowdown ever been referred to as an upturn, let's set that one in stone.



I do call my self a Conservative and as per my 1st post in the other place I also refer to my self as a capitalists, almost to the point of being callous.



And as you ask, I support the government on many levels. Lower Corporation tax which makes me more competitive, lower tax thresholds, the list goes on. But ultimately they are the only party that can realistically deliver what the majority of the population voted for, what I voted for.



Democracy..... No disrespect but you're not interested in UK democracy, you're here because Brexit will hurt S.I far more than any country on the planet, FACT.



As for an impact assessment, I can 100% assure you that this government has done an impact assessment. That assessment has told them that they do what the BOSS says or they are fired.

[Conchúr]

You clearly didn't listen or look at the graph. Beautiful upturn, it is national debt. It's the slow and now fall that is the thing in question.



Your ridiculous muse about achieving things despite the EU is honestly not worth commenting on.

 I was commenting on the slowdown you cited from 2010, which you hold to be due to Tory rule.  I'm not disputing whether that's factual, semi-factual or just luck — but I am pointing out that it was achieved during EU membership.



As for my "ridiculous muse", I don't really understand why it's not worth commenting on.  You call yourself a conservative and yet support a government which is adopting a radical economic shift and displaying no sign that it really understands what it's adtually doing or intends to do.  Hell, I'm not even arguing in this particular thread with you on whether success was achieved because or in spite of the EU .......but what I am arguing is that it is very very strange for a self-described conservative to praise the successes of the Conservative government and react to that success by being totally fine with the current government radically altering the country's economic model without even so much as an impact assessment.



That to me is not Conservatism at all.

[Streetwalker]

If Boris Johonson is elected with a significant majority, which is the most likely outcome at this point, I have no doubt that he will deliver the withdrawal from the EU quickly.  



I have also argued that he will then betray the hard liners and soften Brexit, extend the transition and so on.



Yes, he has ruled this out of course, but he has u turned on most things before and has a track record of betraying pretty much everyone including his closest friends and those he is in relationships with.  Betraying the hard line Brexiters will not be an issue for him if he gets the chance, and fundamentally I have no doubt that he doesn't want the kind of Brexit he's being forced to advocate - to him it's just a route to power.

It will be a power short lived if he does a tory on us Javert , trust me on this

[Nick]

Ok, so as we have discussed before, in your view the Tories have achieved that wonderful upward trend on that graph.  They have done that while the U.K. was a member of the EU. Now they want to bring about a massive economic and political shift but won't assess the actual impact it will have.



So, for someone like yourself who is a businessman, you will understand that risk is simply the uncertainty of outcome — it is not invariably a negative thing but can actually be a positive.  Nonetheless, I have never sat in the boardroom of any successful company or investment fund where risk was treated as an afterthought which was not to be taken seriously. If you are a conservative, you would surely set a risk appetite for making strategic company decisions based on assessing and weighing up the risk — thus making a decision on the basis of being as informed as possible.  To me, in the context of a business anyway, this is Conservatism 101. You make decisions on commercial reasoning — and commercial reasoning is based on understanding risk.



So I find it strange that you are not criticising the current Tory government for behaving in a way which is distinctly non-Conservative. If they want to safeguard the economy, why aren't they performing / releasing impact assessments so that (a) they can understand the impact of their plans for the country and (b) businesses can plan for the future by getting a feel for where the government sees this going?



You may laud the Conservatives for their successes (in all those years where they didn't blindly pursue huge unplanned shifts like Brexit) but I find it perplexing that you think this current Tory government is even conservative at all when they are behaving in a distinctly non-conservative way.

You clearly didn't listen or look at the graph. Beautiful upturn, it is national debt. It's the slow and now fall that is the thing in question.



Your ridiculous muse about achieving things despite the EU is honestly not worth commenting on.

[Barry]

No, it was Labour who got us from 40 to 70 on the graph.

[Javert]

Indeed trusting Boris Johnson to deliver Brexit does go against the grain but given the alternative I have to trust him to move us in the right direction . Johnson has now put his political life on delivering Brexit and that should ,I say should mean given a majority in parliament that  he carries it out .



Brexit party will hopefully pick up a couple of seats from Labour ,the conservatives will  pick up a couple of seats from labour and the liberal democrats will pick up a couple of seats from labour . As you say a mixed bag ,but a mixed bag with less red in it .



Our position will be stronger because our stand will be sort out a free trade deal by the end of next year or at the end of the transition we finally go our separate ways without any formal deal . And this time we mean it .

If Boris Johonson is elected with a significant majority, which is the most likely outcome at this point, I have no doubt that he will deliver the withdrawal from the EU quickly.  



I have also argued that he will then betray the hard liners and soften Brexit, extend the transition and so on.



Yes, he has ruled this out of course, but he has u turned on most things before and has a track record of betraying pretty much everyone including his closest friends and those he is in relationships with.  Betraying the hard line Brexiters will not be an issue for him if he gets the chance, and fundamentally I have no doubt that he doesn't want the kind of Brexit he's being forced to advocate - to him it's just a route to power.

[papasmurf]

I don't think anyone is scared or terrified of any given outcome ,

I am terrified of the Tories getting a working majority. Hopefully tactical voting is going to stop that.

[Streetwalker]

Ok, to clarify, this implies a couple of assumptions:



1) no deal brexit is a "scary" enough prospect for the EU that it will make them abandon their current demands (NI, divorce bill, citizens rights) and agree to UK demands



2) their current adherence to the above demands is because that, although terrified of "no deal", they have never yet believed it will occur



3) whilst no deal is terrifying for the EU to cause (1) it is of no major concern to UK - at least not enough to deter the UK from brexit



Are 1, 2 & 3 a reasonable distillation of your position?

I don't think anyone is scared or terrified of any given outcome ,well apart from the Europhiles who seem to be .  My position is that the powers to be will see sense and agree a deal to a situation that benefits everyone . Everyone being the British public who have decided they don't want political governance via Europe . And a functioning market across Europe that supports business on both sides of the English Channel

I see those goals as being more attainable after we have left than while we are still inside the EU with a remain focused parliament and half the population (well almost half) quivering in their boots that the end of the world is nigh . This just gives the EU a good opportunity to hold all the aces in making any deal at the current time .

[Conchúr]

How is a governments performance linked to the impact of a proposed deal?



As for their performance, borrowing is down over a £100 billion a year from £140 to £35 billion. The debt as a percentage of GDP is coming down, people have suffered for sure but we couldn't carry on with the uncontrolled spending of the Labour government, live within our means.



As you can see the steepest climb in national debt happened during a Labour government from Jul 2008 - Oct 2010. Ever since it has been slowing and is now falling.



 https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9ba6e1fcd75aac47f3423e8a0b10dc15">

Ok, so as we have discussed before, in your view the Tories have achieved that wonderful upward trend on that graph.  They have done that while the U.K. was a member of the EU. Now they want to bring about a massive economic and political shift but won't assess the actual impact it will have.



So, for someone like yourself who is a businessman, you will understand that risk is simply the uncertainty of outcome — it is not invariably a negative thing but can actually be a positive.  Nonetheless, I have never sat in the boardroom of any successful company or investment fund where risk was treated as an afterthought which was not to be taken seriously. If you are a conservative, you would surely set a risk appetite for making strategic company decisions based on assessing and weighing up the risk — thus making a decision on the basis of being as informed as possible.  To me, in the context of a business anyway, this is Conservatism 101. You make decisions on commercial reasoning — and commercial reasoning is based on understanding risk.



So I find it strange that you are not criticising the current Tory government for behaving in a way which is distinctly non-Conservative. If they want to safeguard the economy, why aren't they performing / releasing impact assessments so that (a) they can understand the impact of their plans for the country and (b) businesses can plan for the future by getting a feel for where the government sees this going?



You may laud the Conservatives for their successes (in all those years where they didn't blindly pursue huge unplanned shifts like Brexit) but I find it perplexing that you think this current Tory government is even conservative at all when they are behaving in a distinctly non-conservative way.

[Nick]

If the Conservatives look after the economy why aren't they performing / releasing impact assessments on the deal they are proposing ?

How is a governments performance linked to the impact of a proposed deal?



As for their performance, borrowing is down over a £100 billion a year from £140 to £35 billion. The debt as a percentage of GDP is coming down, people have suffered for sure but we couldn't carry on with the uncontrolled spending of the Labour government, live within our means.



As you can see the steepest climb in national debt happened during a Labour government from Jul 2008 - Oct 2010. Ever since it has been slowing and is now falling.



 https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9ba6e1fcd75aac47f3423e8a0b10dc15">

[Conchúr]

With a majority government come the opportunity to go back and say, actually this was ok when we couldn't get no deal through but now we can we want a serious deal.



In fairness, with Boris's deal we are out the CU and SM, we can make trade deals and stop free movement but N.I is like 12 o'clock half struck. Again the DUP will feel pissed off but for NI they have the best of both worlds. Access to both the UK's open market and the EU's closed markets.



As for voting, LD'S are a no no, Labour a joke and BXP only if you have one.  Got to be Boris as we get Brexit and you know the Conservatives look after the economy. I'm sure the socialists will disagree but that's why they are socialists, they want an unobtainable utopia where everyone shares. 😂

If the Conservatives look after the economy why aren't they performing / releasing impact assessments on the deal they are proposing ?