We're OUT

[Thomas]

There was a similar famine in Scotland from about 1846 to 1856.

Famines on and off all throughout scottish history.

I mind someone telling me of the icelandic volcanos arupting at one point in history , and it affecting northern europes weather pattern which destroyed many crops including in scotland , which then obviously led to shortage of food.

..but by feck borkie , i think you will be hard pushed in european history to show the loss of popualtion that ireland suffered as a result of the great hunger in any other country including scotland.

FFS the graph itself which cover almost 900 years of history  , only has the bubonic plague in the mid 14th century that comes anywhere close to the demographic devastation ireland suffered in 1840 onwards.

Irelands popualtion is still less today than the almost 9 million it had 200 years ago.

[Thomas]

There was a similar famine in Scotland from about 1846 to 1856. In fact there was a potato famine throughout that period. The Irish suffered worse because there were fewer alternatives. In fact the poor bloody Micks suffered because there was sod all else on offer.

...and yet if you look at the graph borkie , scotlands popualtion rocketed during the 19th century , and only tailed off with the devastation and loss of life during the first world war in the second decade of the 20th.

If you look at that graph scotland population was at one time 50 % of englands , and ireland almost the same as englands .  I think from memory , because of the loss of many scottish records which plantagenet and then later oliver cromwell destroyed or took , and of course the mad protestant taliban and thier book /document burning of the late 16th and early 17 th century where they deliberately destroyed many of the old gaidhlig records , much of what we know about scotland is really nothing more than educated guesswork.

The old formula they use is because scotland had one sixth the arable land of england , then they assumed prior to modern census we had one sixth the population.

Englands population was always outnumbered massively by the three celtic nations till the more modern era , and then from about the irish famine in the mid nineteenth century is when england overtook the three celtic nations combined.

A lot of scotlands and englands popualtion growth after the mid nineteenth century was irish migration......tam devine the histrorian wrote that at one point in the late 19th early 20th century 1 in 4 of the population of lowland scotland was irish.

Much of england must have been similar , especially the big cities of the north west and london.

The Irish suffered worse because there were fewer alternatives. In fact the poor bloody Micks suffered because there was sod all else on offer.

Not sure i agree but thats another story.

[GerryT]

There was a similar famine in Scotland from about 1846 to 1856. In fact there was a potato famine throughout that period. The Irish suffered worse because there were fewer alternatives. In fact the poor bloody Micks suffered because there was sod all else on offer.

During the potato blight there was enough alternative food in Ireland to feed the Irish 3 times over, plenty of fruit,veg, beef, deer, pork, wheat, barley, honey etc..  but the English took it for themselves. Back then we Irish were under British control, their answer to the starvation was to send more Army troops to protect the food being exported to England so it wasn't stolen.

[Borchester]

I think that was ireland you are looking at barry. ( an gorta mor , the great hunger of the 1840`s)

There was a similar famine in Scotland from about 1846 to 1856. In fact there was a potato famine throughout that period. The Irish suffered worse because there were fewer alternatives. In fact the poor bloody Micks suffered because there was sod all else on offer.

[Tbird]

Something seems to have happened in 1840. Perhaps you know what it was, Thomas?

Industrial revolution my friend, and the introduction of train and offshore fishing made mass movement of foods, goods, people and fish & chips possible.

So people all over UK flooded to England for higher paid jobs in factories or coal mines. Then once people in England were better paid and better fed, they just live longer and made more babies. And the rest is history.

England expect every men will do his duty, their d***s surely did.

[Barry]

I think that was ireland you are looking at barry. ( an gorta mor , the great hunger of the 1840`s)

oops my bad. Still an interesting graphic and thanks for you explanation.
At school they said history or chemistry - I said "chemistry". 

I thought Gerry might have noticed. 

[Thomas]

Can i just pre empt , im not blaming england or more properly the english people.

Im simply pointing out a country needs control of its own affairs from its own parliament as im sure most  on this forum would agree , just as the majority of english people want control of england coming from englands parliament.

If being under westminsters control was what people across the world thought was in countries best interests , then 63 countires , including our neighbour ireland , would never have wanted to leave the empire.

talking of which , the one part of the island of ireland that is under uk control , northern ireland , has a gdp level a third of what the independent and far richer republic of ireland has.

Obviously being part of the uk isnt working for northern ireland either. Commercially its been a calamity.

[Thomas]

Edit to add#

Barry scotland population seemed to start growing in the last decade of the 17th century  , which seem to chime with scotland economy taking off.

According to michael lynch , ths historian and writer( tam devine as well) the economy was growing at 2.5 % per annum , and the scottish burghs had never had it so good trading with continental europe.

Come the union with england in 1707 , the removal of all powers and control from edinburgh , scotlands economy went into freefall for the next century , and with it  , scotlands popualtion .

Obviously other issues affected it as well , jacobite rebellions , etc , but clearly as many have stated the union has been disasterous for scotland popualtion over 300 years in percentage terms. You dont need to delve into history to see this , in our lifetimes it happened when the conservatives in london controlled scotland , 1979 to 1997 , scotland lost a fifth of its population due to economic reasons.

[Thomas]

That's an interesting map.
Scotland was growing at the same rate as England after the union . Something seems to have happened in 1840. Perhaps you know what it was, Thomas?

I think that was ireland you are looking at barry. ( an gorta mor , the great hunger of the 1840`s)

Scotland hasnt grown at the same rate as england throughout the union , and certainly englands population seems to sky rocket from around 1800 compared to the rest.

The point is barry , to master a nations population , especially the modern period , you need control of of the economy migration etc , all the normal things countries take for granted.

If englands economy , migration and all the rest had become more and more increasingly controlled from brussells , to englands detriment , i think you will find englands popualtion would similarly level off / possibly fall as well.

[Barry]

Only three nations in western europe haven't grown in population terms similar to the rest.

All three Norway Ireland and Scotland , were under the control until recently of larger imperial powers .

This graph here shows the massive imbalance after the union with England.

That's an interesting map.
Scotland was growing at the same rate as England after the union . Something seems to have happened in 1840. Perhaps you know what it was, Thomas?

[Sheepy]

You mean if you knew anything you would have something to tell.

No I mean you got short changed on that one ,Gerry. Next.
Short changed, would go straight over your head anyway.

[Thomas]

Thomas, do I have to remind you that, NI and Gibraltar got a separate deal not because UK want it, but because EU want to bitch UK and Traitor May (and remorner MP) let EU to have their way?(SNP tried to whore with EU too, she just failed.

The eu want scotland to remain as well. Guy verhofstadt for example said if scotland were to leave the uk and rejoin the eu , there would be no big obstacle to that.

Gunther Krichbaum , chairman of the german budestags european affairs said he expects scotland to join the eu and the eu to return to 28 states.

Scotland wants to join the eu , so what are you talkin about?

If its good enough for northern ireland or gibraltar its good enough for scotland.

What the uk wants is irrelevant. Gibraltar and northern ireland staying in the eu to all intents and purposes just proves that.

BoJo and many leave supporters like me would like to told EU go fxxk themselves and have hard border with Ireland instead.

You didnt though did you despite all the rhetoric.

The eu told you whats what , and annexed northern ireland. Gibraltar ( dont know all the ins ans outs of the deal , but we will) seem similar , so what are you talking about?

And your SNP overwhelming majority argument is more about the flaw of "winner takes all" system that is part of a deep vote-system reform that many on this forming is talking about, they won't have so much seats if it is a proportional vote system.

Clearly you dont have a clue what you are talking about. The scottish parliament is run on a proportional system , the snp are the government. The pro indy greens and snp have more seats under this proportional system than unionists. You do realise that dont you?

The flaws of the fptp system arent our problem , your westminster parliament forces it on us , and then when scots vote in the snp as a majority under the british very own dodgy system , you moan at me and bleat about its imperfections?

Doesnt matter  what anti democratic system you use , when countires want indy , they beat it and take control of their own affairs.

I know you want to fight for Scotland independent, I am okay for that

I couldnt really care less mate wether you are or arent. You dont have a vote or say on the matter.

I just find some of your argument against England is not justified.

Which arguments?

Im one of the biggest pro english people on this forum and always have been . Its the british im against , not the english .

[Nick]

which the EU is repatriating

You've just highlighted what you think the EU can do and your attitude. The EU can't do anything Gerry, as I KEEP on telling you it doesn't exist apart from on paper. It doesn't buy or sell anything, it hasn't got a GDP.

It can't repatriate anything, the UK services are bought by institutions inside separate countries and if they wish to keep using the best and cheapest service in the world they will do so.

That one line outlines why the UK got the hell out, and people like you are the reason, you stand for all the things that we hate about the EU. I honestly think you will never get it Gerry, you are too blinkered to see the monster that is the EU.

[Tbird]

So england and wales voted leave , go t leave , northern ireland and gibraltar voted remain got remain or as good as  , and scotland is the only part of the uk and the overseas territory that didnt get what it voted.

Thomas, do I have to remind you that, NI and Gibraltar got a separate deal not because UK want it, but because EU want to bitch UK and Traitor May (and remorner MP) let EU to have their way?(SNP tried to whore with EU too, she just failed.

BoJo and many leave supporters like me would like to told EU go fxxk themselves and have hard border with Ireland instead.

And your SNP overwhelming majority argument is more about the flaw of "winner takes all" system that is part of a deep vote-system reform that many on this forming is talking about, they won't have so much seats if it is a proportional vote system. 
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I know you want to fight for Scotland independent, I am okay for that. I just find some of your argument against England is not justified.

[Thomas]

Well, do you know many Asian nations do considered Australia hasn't come out of "colonial era" yet.... One of our former Prime Minister is even working for No. 10 right now. It won't surprise me if he is an Englishman at heart. 

Doesnt matter what the perception is. The reality is oz is independent. Show me where the oz parliament is planning to fold and hand over control of its power to westmisnter ?

. It won't surprise me if he is an Englishman at heart.

snp politician mike russell was born in bromley in kent. He is english by birth , and wants scottish indy , so being an englishman at heart isnt necessarily and indicator of supporting westminster control.

And to be honest, most England men and women I have been with aren't too happy about Scotts have so much say to pure England's (not UK's) affairs either.......

same here mate. ?Thats what scottish indy is all about , taking scots mps out of england parliament , and stopping scots mps having a say.

Im with you here , its only the british unionists that want scotland to have a say in englands parliament .

I don't mind people thinking of/supporting an independent,

doesnt matter what you mind mate it isnt any of your business anymore than autralias business is anything to do wi me.

but I would always recommend people think of a solid plan for post-independent economy before that. And that's what I haven't heard much from SNP so far.

We have ?

What do you want to know in the interests of conversation?

For example  , how does your near neighbour in new zealand survive outside westminster control?

Scotland has a similar popualtion to the kiwis , yet we have a bigger GDP , better tax revenue , a bigger export market  on our doorstep ( europe)yet we only control 30% of our own tax , and half our own spending unlike the kiwis who control 100% of both.

The kiwis also have the bonus of getting the government they elect instead of like us , who get the gov that england elects.

Why isnt the kiwis clamouring to come back under westminster control?