Parts of NHS Face Collapse in 3wks/Ambulances: 9hr waits to hand over patients

[Thomas]

As far as I'm concerned in England there are only two cheeks on the arse.

of course , and thats how labour and their supporters like you hope it remains.

Dont discount the english people though tolerating this farce of a situation for much longer. Labours greatest concern would be a party like the snp arising in england and totally annihilating them like they have done in scotland.

Its people like you who wish to maintain the tired broken status quo to the detriment of the enlgish people .

Not much chance with the Tories, a bit more chance with Labour. That's if we ever get beyond the bullshit that every move Labour makes is about to bankrupt the country

Thats is factually correct.

Labour are completely out of their depth economically as everyone has seen. In this thread alone , the PFI debacle under labour highlights that fact alone , never mind elsewhere.

Labour governed for thirteen years at uk level under the sunshine of an economic boom created by the previous hard work of the tories , and by the end of it , had bankrupted the uk and left a note saying there is no money left to the incoming tory/lib coalition , who then had to take up the reins and spend years rectifying the damage labour created.

The snp similarly had to do the same in scotland.People in scotland have never had it so good since we kicked labour out of power both at holyrood , and westminster.

Labour are well known for being completely economically incompetent , as the tories and snp have proved beyond any doubt.

As Sheep, says the Scots have taken out another mortgage . Why didn't they just borrow the money? ,

Your ignorance is showing yet again.

Scotland can't borrow any money under the terms set by labour when they created the farce that was devolution , and it was only recently the tories allowed the snp government at holyrood to be able to borrow a tiny amount of money. So thats why.

As everyone seems to think Labour should have done, it would have been so much cheaper.

i just proved it to you in this thread , the snp reset the terms of some pfi contracts to half that what labour had done , so what are you waffling about?

Labour.......completely fiscally incompetent all round , as both the scottish and english governments have found when they had to sort out the mess labour left behind after their 13 years of prfligacy and tax spend and wastefullness.

and because some local authorities got themselves into bad agreements involving excessive interest

Labour run local authorities like north lanarkshire for example , under the direction of the labour party in london.

Hoist by your own petard.

I do hear there is some  distinct criticism of the fact the interest on the present arrangements for infrastructure in Scotland is still extortionate.

there is indeed. Contracts both labour governments and local labour run administrations signed the scottish taxpayer up to , and the snp have done thier best to get out of but coudlnt in many cases.

Some of these PFI contracts and massive debt labour left will run to 2030 and beyond.

Labour as ever indebting generations in the future with their profligacy .How your party does love spending other peoples money and indebting children.

[Nick]

The point is though nick , if you read back through the thread , in my discussion with good old , im highlighting labours duplicity on the subject of tuition fees. ( like much else)

Good old attacks the tories for tuition fees , when it was labour who brought them in  ,in the first place , something he ignores.

Then he trys and punts the old tired lines about labour bringing in the graduate endowment in 2000 (which labour have tried and failed to punt the lie over the years they abolished in 2000 the tuition fees they previously brought in ) .

How can anyone vote for such a lying bunch of shysters like labour?

If you personally support tuition fees , then you want to vote for a party that stands on a ticket endorsing tuition fees.

If you dont  support them , then you want to vote for a party like the snp who are absolutely against them.

As we see from labour , they try and slyly tread some middle ground of attacking the tories for tuition fees while they secretly support them. We see this mantra in action in so many political subjects.

People are wise to them and see right through them.

I would hope the people in the english north, like us , keep the boot on labour necks and stop this party and their lying politicians getting anywhere near power.

Quite! And who first removed milk from schools? Labour but Thatcher is the nasty one. When did the first food bank appear? Under Labour. They forget to examine the truth.

[Good old]

You attack the tories over uni fees , and when i simply point out labour brought uni fees in , and not only brought them in , but in 2010 gordon brown wanted to increase them , and ed millibands offer in 2015 was merely to reduce them to £6000 , six time the original amount labour introduced them at , you go into meltdown and have no answers.

So what are you moaning about?

Labour brought the fees in , and labour  in two successive elections promised to not only raise them , but keep them at a minimum of 6 times the original cost.

So in effect you are essentially moaning at the tories as i said for doing exactly what labour would have done.

As for pfi , i have shown where you are talking guff.

First of all , labour took a tory idea and put it into action when in power over thirteen years.

Then when you try and bleat how not all private finance is bad ( to get labour off the hook a wee bit) , which i agreed with , i then showed you how private finance should be done under a competent government like the snp , where they halved the cost of what labour did , and again you run off screaming.

Labour as we all know are extremely incompetent and duplicitous to their own voters.

So im not sure what you are really bleating about .

You know good old , i dont remember the labour governments pre 1979. All the old bhoys used to tell me what a bunch of arseholes labour were , and i was determined to see for myself when i evetually became politically aware in the mid eighties.

I was to wait until 1997 to see the truth , and boy did labour not disappoint.

Most incompetent party in these islands and that is saying something. The snp government have abolished labours tuition fees , and doubled the nurses bursary in scotland compared to your country.

So the point i keep making is why would anyone vote labour as they are merely the twin cheek of the same arse as the tories.

Since 1997 , with the exception of the corbyn era , their policy has been summed up as a fag paper to the left of the tories on all issues.

ignoring your core left wing voters while trying to outbribe a million or so voters in tory middle england marginals by promising to do the same as the tories on things like tuition fees and bursaries ecxept charge a little bit less and pay a little bit more is laughable child like politics of a long gone age.

As far as I'm concerned in England there are only two cheeks on the arse. The SNP will only be truly  tried when they get independence for Scotland. I would like to see some of what they do repeated hear . Not much chance with the Tories, a bit more chance with Labour. That's if we ever get beyond the bullshit that every move Labour makes is about to bankrupt the country.
As Sheep, says the Scots have taken out another mortgage . Why didn't they just borrow the money? , As everyone seems to think Labour should have done, it would have been so much cheaper. The point is needs must , and because some local authorities got themselves into bad agreements involving excessive interest ,.that is not to be laid completely at the government of the day. I do hear there is some  distinct criticism of the fact the interest on the present arrangements for infrastructure in Scotland is still extortionate. They tell me they thought PFI was gone, but has it just had a name change, you know in the same way that George Osbourne dealt with continuing its use.

[Thomas]

Absolutely nothing new from you. Thomas, done over several posts. All of the same old same old. What could be said  in few words spread over page after page. Of waffle ,attempting much of the time to give meaning to what is said ,that suits your anti Labour onslaught. We have been all over the subject at some length in the past. Some agreements were not good ones. Where have I said otherwise?  And you of course parade any example of a bad one as if it covers all such agreements.   On other issues such as uni fees  try addressing the actual questions put now , regarding now. Without using the old,  well Labour did this Labour did that . If your old feller had hit your mother once ,would that excuse you hitting the missus four times.?
That is what has happened to university fees.

You attack the tories over uni fees , and when i simply point out labour brought uni fees in , and not only brought them in , but in 2010 gordon brown wanted to increase them , and ed millibands offer in 2015 was merely to reduce them to £6000 , six time the original amount labour introduced them at , you go into meltdown and have no answers.

So what are you moaning about?

Labour brought the fees in , and labour  in two successive elections promised to not only raise them , but keep them at a minimum of 6 times the original cost.

So in effect you are essentially moaning at the tories as i said for doing exactly what labour would have done.

As for pfi , i have shown where you are talking guff.

First of all , labour took a tory idea and put it into action when in power over thirteen years.

Then when you try and bleat how not all private finance is bad ( to get labour off the hook a wee bit) , which i agreed with , i then showed you how private finance should be done under a competent government like the snp , where they halved the cost of what labour did , and again you run off screaming.

Labour as we all know are extremely incompetent and duplicitous to their own voters.

So im not sure what you are really bleating about .

You know good old , i dont remember the labour governments pre 1979. All the old bhoys used to tell me what a bunch of arseholes labour were , and i was determined to see for myself when i evetually became politically aware in the mid eighties.

I was to wait until 1997 to see the truth , and boy did labour not disappoint.

Most incompetent party in these islands and that is saying something. The snp government have abolished labours tuition fees , and doubled the nurses bursary in scotland compared to your country.

So the point i keep making is why would anyone vote labour as they are merely the twin cheek of the same arse as the tories.

Since 1997 , with the exception of the corbyn era , their policy has been summed up as a fag paper to the left of the tories on all issues.

ignoring your core left wing voters while trying to outbribe a million or so voters in tory middle england marginals by promising to do the same as the tories on things like tuition fees and bursaries ecxept charge a little bit less and pay a little bit more is laughable child like politics of a long gone age.

[Borg Refinery]

Dyno is like most of us, bored shitless by Covid and Brexit and thereby desperate to provoke some sort of reaction over most anything.

I have an image of him being molested by a windmill, but until he gives us more details I don't know what sort of counseling to offer him

This is accurate.

Your supportive words mean much to me, and I fear I have already gotten over the worst of it. But there is another.. oh shi- (gets lifted up by crook of pants)..

..Not again!

[Borchester]

How old are you, Dynamis, and are you in a vulnerable group because of your health?

Dyno is like most of us, bored shitless by Covid and Brexit and thereby desperate to provoke some sort of reaction over most anything.

I have an image of him being molested by a windmill, but until he gives us more details I don't know what sort of counseling to offer him

[Sheepy]

By the way good old , in your desperate defence of new labour over the scandal of pfi , let me say that labour on average in scotland managed to sign the scot taxpayer up to contracts that were worth 5.4 times the initial capital value of the asset , while once labour were booted out of power , the scottish futures trust under the hubco programme did it for half what labour did , showing the mind numbing incompetence of the labour party regarding pfi.
https://archive.is/GAqGw



it's reduced it by 52%, to be precise – from 5.4x initial capital value to just 2.6x.

Readers might well feel that was a pretty phenomenal achievement, particularly given that the Scottish Government has almost no borrowing powers and has very little in the way of alternatives to involving the private sector if it wants to get anything built.

https://theferret.scot/private-finance-secrecy-corporate-power/


https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-52-empty-glass/#more-98885

Sounds about standard Mortgage criteria.

[Good old]

By the way good old , in your desperate defence of new labour over the scandal of pfi , let me say that labour on average in scotland managed to sign the scot taxpayer up to contracts that were worth 5.4 times the initial capital value of the asset , while once labour were booted out of power , the scottish futures trust under the hubco programme did it for half what labour did , showing the mind numbing incompetence of the labour party regarding pfi.
https://archive.is/GAqGw



it's reduced it by 52%, to be precise – from 5.4x initial capital value to just 2.6x.

Readers might well feel that was a pretty phenomenal achievement, particularly given that the Scottish Government has almost no borrowing powers and has very little in the way of alternatives to involving the private sector if it wants to get anything built.

https://theferret.scot/private-finance-secrecy-corporate-power/


https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-52-empty-glass/#more-98885

Absolutely nothing new from you. Thomas, done over several posts. All of the same old same old. What could be said  in few words spread over page after page. Of waffle ,attempting much of the time to give meaning to what is said ,that suits your anti Labour onslaught. We have been all over the subject at some length in the past. Some agreements were not good ones. Where have I said otherwise?  And you of course parade any example of a bad one as if it covers all such agreements.   On other issues such as uni fees  try addressing the actual questions put now , regarding now. Without using the old,  well Labour did this Labour did that . If your old feller had hit your mother once ,would that excuse you hitting the missus four times.?
That is what has happened to university fees.

[Barry]

How old are you, Dynamis, and are you in a vulnerable group because of your health?

[Borg Refinery]

[Thomas]

By the way good old , in your desperate defence of new labour over the scandal of pfi , let me say that labour on average in scotland managed to sign the scot taxpayer up to contracts that were worth 5.4 times the initial capital value of the asset , while once labour were booted out of power , the scottish futures trust under the hubco programme did it for half what labour did , showing the mind numbing incompetence of the labour party regarding pfi.

Legacy PFI contract payments in Scotland top 'staggering' £1bn
SNP blasts previous Labour-led Scottish Executive as Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland statistics for the 2016/17 financial year are revealed

https://archive.is/GAqGw



it's reduced it by 52%, to be precise – from 5.4x initial capital value to just 2.6x.

Readers might well feel that was a pretty phenomenal achievement, particularly given that the Scottish Government has almost no borrowing powers and has very little in the way of alternatives to involving the private sector if it wants to get anything built.

https://theferret.scot/private-finance-secrecy-corporate-power/


https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-52-empty-glass/#more-98885

[Borg Refinery]

In simple terms the massive costs of restructuring the NHS fit for the future could not , be achieved without massive borrowing . 

So what?

How does this prove PFI's were alright?

We know that PFI  had been introduced as a tool to avoid appearing to raise the national debt. Not by Labour of course.

But continued by them.

In the event a good many PFI agreements proved to be sound.

100% nonsense.

You don't bother linking anything then expect us to take you at your word as an authority, the exact same thing you accuse me of.

It is trolling, it is boring, your words simply reflect back on you, all of them as with your peers on here.

For some though , that was not the case. Yet it hasn't stopped Tory governments continuing to use such agreements.
You are not at all exceptional in being able to point the failings out. Your failing is damming a complete situation because parts of it could have been done better . Now go back to your dreams of a world with no nails to tread on.

Go back to your dreams of treading on a rusty nail and pretending it was something that bettered the country, I prefer my 'dream'. And take your fellow childish school debate team yobbo's with you.

The churlish "boo yoo" stuff on here is so base level Tory-Labour tribal football hooligan level stuff and when someone points this out they are called silly.

In general, this is how it is.

[Thomas]

In simple terms the massive costs of restructuring the NHS fit for the future could not , be achieved without massive borrowing .  We know that PFI  had been introduced as a tool to avoid appearing to raise the national debt. Not by Labour of course.
In the event a good many PFI agreements proved to be sound. For some though , that was not the case. Yet it hasn't stopped Tory governments continuing to use such agreements.
You are not at all exceptional in being able to point the failings out. Your failing is damming a complete situation because parts of it could have been done better . Now go back to your dreams of a world with no nails to tread on.

Bollocks.

Utter cac.

First of all , the 12 million largely left wing voters who voted labour 1997 didnt vote for private finance to fund what in their views should largely have been done under general taxation for what should have been in effect a nationalised service.

Thats was labours first mistake .

Secondly , had labour had the guts to stand under the private finance funding for organisations like the nhs , then for those who agreed with it ( nothing wrong with private funding) then it should have been done with skill and competence , instead of what the uk taxpayer received under new labour , a despicable clapped out PFI system , with contracts largely completely out of control and spiralling cost  for the project at hand  it was supposed to have financed.

Some of these pfi contracts for new hosptials etc were largely 5 times or more the cost of the original quote , and they were so beloved of new labour because it allowed blair and brown to pass the borrowing buck onto generations in the future , whilst their dodgy books remained largely debt free.

You can't pass the buck onto the tories and say the tories are continuing pfi. As far as im aware , pfi was being explored by john majors government just before he was kicked out of power, and tony blair and new labour had no mention of them in their manifesto.So as ever labour were elected under false pretences.

Labour are supposed to be the party of nationalisation , the tories privatisation. You get what it says o the tin with the tories , so when they indulge in pfi , whats your argument?

[Thomas]

Nowhere have I denied , that Labour introduced university fees . I only stated that those fees were not applied to nursing courses.
The fact that Labour introduced  uni fees  at a relatively moderate rate , compared to those that would come with the Tory coalition , has no real relevance to the massive hike applied to those fees by the Tories.
And in particular the application of the hiked fees and the removal of the additional financial help that had previously applied to nursing courses.
The Tory policy on the production of highly qualified nurses, stinks of their great failure  in only ever addressing the cost of anything , and never it's actual value.

i made it clear what i picked you up over earlier in the thread , and anyone who can read  , can clearly see what you wrote , what you insinuated , and my retort debunking your rubbish.

Further , you cant bring in tuition fees , of which there was no mention in your manifesto in 1997 , clearly pissing off your own voters , and then start moaning further down the line the tories are hiking fees.

Alistair darling and gordon brown made it clear before the 2010 general election if labour got back into power , they had pissed the uks money up against a brick wall with their profligacy and would increase tuition fees and general taxation etc to pay for their previous wastefulness. Ed milliband , in a desperate quip to appeal to tory marginals repeated the same stuff in 2015 , tougher on welfare than the tories , against immigration , and desperately tried to resist taking a stance on reducing tuition fees , before taking a limp wristed middle ground of agreeing to take them down to £6000 , rather than £9000 , among the highest fees in the world , while the tories made mincemeat of his empty promise.

Ed Miliband delays outlining tuition fee policy as pressure builds

Business secretary Vince Cable says fee cut would damage universities and public finances, while Labour activists call for clarity

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/feb/02/ed-miliband-delays-outlining-tuition-fee-reforms

So you are simply moaning about the tories doing what labour would have done anyway had they been allowed to maintain power.

You betrayed your own voters under blair and brown , in this mad idea labour had of ignoring 12 million largely left wing voters  like cromwell deppity dawg etc , to outbribe a million or so tories in middle england marginals , and now cant understand why labour are despised left right and centre.

Tony blair had lost 3 million of the 4 million voters before his 2001 re election over issues like tuition fees , never mind the iraq debacle and the bonfire of civil liberties that was to come.

Keep up the good work good old. As long as current labour have new labour worshippers like you  , im a happy man .

[Thomas]

Two interesting little graphs (for the literate only)

more insults .

I tell you what dyno , if you are an example of the brain dead fantasists in south east england who  support labour and the anglo left , i think you are going to be out in the political wilderness for years to come.

Anyone who disagrees with you is slagged off as illiterate , bnp types , tories and all the usual frothing insults we see day in say out from the anglo left.

So much so , i , a scottish indy supporter , is tarred as a bnp type person simply because i dont share your vision of mass uncontrolled immigration. How can i possibly be a bnp type snp supporter  , two parties so diametrically opposed to each other in practically every way imaginable?

For the record i support controlled immigration into scotland from our fellow european countries , and recently argued on this very forum regarding scotlands demopraphic history and falling popualtion within the union.

What i dont want is idealistic fools like you ever being in control of scotland and opening the floodgates , like labour did uk wide in 2004 , to all your layabout immigrant friends  .