A perfect political party

[Thomas]

Typically ignorant tabloid rubbish. Most working class people are actually in work....unless you include retirees perhaps.

but........

Labour failing to win back enough Tory voters, officials warn

Low expectation of 'standstill' result at May local elections as only 4% of Tories switch

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/27/starmer-labour-failing-to-win-back-tory-voters-england-may-polls

Just 4% of Conservative voters are switching to Labour almost a year into Keir Starmer's leadership, polls suggest, and Labour insiders fear the party could lose a slew of council seats in May's local elections.

Labour officials have been briefing that a "standstill" result, where the party gains no seats and minimises losses, would be a good outcome.

One source said internal party projections in March 2020, in the wake of Boris Johnson's landslide general election victory, suggested the party would lose 400 council seats and lose control of some local authorities, including Plymouth, Amber Valley, and Harlow. Elections in May 2020 were subsequently cancelled because of the coronavirus pandemic.
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The party hopes it can avoid such big losses this May but it does not expect to make gains. "There are no sign in any of the polling we have seen that we are going to make any advances whatsoever," a senior Labour source said.

[Thomas]

If you say so, .

If you say so you mean.

the 8 symptoms of labour party groupthink you display time and again on this forum are evident in all your posts steve.

    Illusion of invulnerability – Creates excessive optimism that encourages taking extreme risks.

    Collective rationalization – Members discount warnings and do not reconsider their assumptions.

    Belief in inherent morality – Members believe in the rightness of their cause and therefore ignore the ethical or moral consequences of their decisions.

    Stereotyped views of other groups – Negative views of "enemy" make effective responses to conflict seem unnecessary.

    Direct pressure on dissenters – Members are under pressure not to express arguments against any of the group's views.

    Self-censorship – Doubts and deviations from the perceived group consensus are not expressed.

    Illusion of unanimity – The majority view and judgments are assumed to be unanimous.

    Self-appointed 'mindguards' – Members protect the group and the leader from information that is problematic or contradictory to the group's cohesiveness, view, and/or decisions.

i would say this applies to your pathetic post above steve , regarding knowing whats best for the working class....

    Belief in inherent morality

We see this every day in the standard "sales patter" boilerplate of Labour as the party who stand up for the people and are the only ones who can benefit the working class (or their modern replacement, the "squeezed middle"). They believe that they are morally right in the actions they take.

and the reality under the last labour government...

"Labour stopped defending individual freedom. The evidence can be found all over the place. Detention without trial, courts without juries, increased police and social welfare powers, camera monitoring, the expansion of GCHQ and, of course, identity cards. This is a tricky area for Labour which has always been to some extent a paternalistic party in setting out to support the disadvantaged and the oppressed. Tony Blair didn't always help because, occasionally, his moral convictions conflicted with everyone else's personal freedoms."

"Labour has still to confront a pervasive sense that too little changed for too many people when it held power. There are pockets of deprivation all over Britain – often a stone's throw from beautifully regenerated city centres – where life never seems to change much, come boom or come bust, and not just for those at the bottom of the pile.

The party noisily champions the 'squeezed middle', but Labour is vaguer about exactly what squeezed them: wages have been flatlining for lower earners since 2003, long before the credit crunch or Osborne's austerity pay freezes.

Young couples were steadily priced out not just of buying a home but renting one – the average London rent now demands an income of £52,000 a year – not merely in the last two years, but over more than a decade of failure to prick the housing bubble. In Bradford, Labour's candidate complained that the "Tories didn't care" about rocketing unemployment – but joblessness actually began rising in the city in 2004.

So it's not enough just to apologise for failures in bank regulation, when lower earners were suffering well before the crash. And it's not enough just to jeer at posh Tories for being out of touch with ordinary folk, when many of them think that Labour had lost touch too. Life may be tougher under the Tories, but for some it was no picnic before – and where's the proof that it would get better if Labour won again?

Where's the big plan for generating more and better jobs, or for helping people do the simple things – find a home, raise a family – now slipping out of reach?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/apr/01/labour-cant-jeer-conservative-weakness

[Thomas]

What is wrong with seeking to make things better for the working class? What is the least bit arrogant about that?

Quite clearly you are sidestepping (as ever) deppitys retort to you.

You say to him he doesnt speak for the working class , and the next , turn around and claim to want to tell the working class what is best for them in your and your parties opinion.

Who are you to tell anyone  , never mind the working class , that you are seeking to make things better for them? You cant see not only the arrogance , but the absolute hypocirsy in that statement after what you have  said to deppity?

Not to mention the fact , as we say again and again , what exactly is labours record in making thigs better for the working class.?

80 years in charge of my home city , and you didnt make things better for the glaswegian working class , you made things worse.Increased poverty , corruption , decreased life expectancy , lost jobs and increased dependency on benfits.

The last scottish labour first minister , jock macconnell , handed back a billion pounds of scottish taxpayers money to his friends blair and brown in westmisnter , told them he had nothing to spend it on unbelievably , and was rewarded with an ermine robe for his services.

A true "working class" hero would have wandered the streets of glasgow or scotland in general hading out that money to the people instead of giving it back to his cronies in london.

Labour have never made anything better for the working man. Certainly millionaire lawyers and champagne socialists in london couldnt give a fig about the ordinary working man , and everyone knows it the legnth and breadth of these islands.

[srb7677]

Considering most of it doesn't actually work for its keep I think it has it pretty good these days ...

Typically ignorant tabloid rubbish. Most working class people are actually in work....unless you include retirees perhaps.

[johnofgwent]

What is wrong with seeking to make things better for the working class?

Considering most of it doesn't actually work for its keep I think it has it pretty good these days ...

[srb7677]

Listen to yourself?.Calling other people arrogant and in the next breath telling everyone you seek to "make things better for the working class"? Thats what a patronising, self congratulating and arrogant attitude looks like personified. The working class aren't fecking stray dogs in need of rescuing by anal elitists like you, pal. Go and join the middle class where you belong.

What is wrong with seeking to make things better for the working class? What is the least bit arrogant about that? I think for too long the working classes have had a bum deal and think they should get a fairer one. Only you could think that this makes me - working class education, working class background, working class family, workjng class home, working class job - someone better suited to the middle classes.

Tell me, what is your objection to a living wage for all adults? Or an end to insecure and excessively one way work contracts? Or to reasonable rents with real security of tenure for working people? What is so terrible about wanting that? You think that makes me some enemy of the working class?

If you say so, .

[DeppityDawg]

Feel better after that little rant do you? Lol.

The whole tirade smacks of arrogance of course, the assumption that you speak for all.

Listen to yourself?.Calling other people arrogant and in the next breath telling everyone you seek to "make things better for the working class"? Thats what a patronising, self congratulating and arrogant attitude looks like personified. The working class aren't fecking stray dogs in need of rescuing by anal elitists like you, pal. Go and join the middle class where you belong.

[Thomas]

Fact is Steve labour were told that they should apologise for their stance on brexit weren't they and you know it.

The best of it is though cromwell when you think of it , the old labour left that steve idolises , like his hero wurzel , were clearly pro brexit and historically anti european union. It was only in 1989 labour became pro EU , so being pro eu is hardly something set in stone.

Wurzel , likes of geroge galloway etc saw the eu and its forerunner as the ultimate captialist project out to piss on the ordinary worker.

It was in the years of kinnock and then smith  , as both leaders saw the complete unelectability of the old hard left type labour , and gradually turned the party away towards what became new labour , that the labour party became pro european.

Then in came tony blair to take it that one step further. So the very blairites steve tells us he hates , while keeping quiet about the latest blairite leader starmer , are the ones who took labour down the pro european union corridor.

....and as i have pointed out many a time , clearly it was starmer leading the pro european blairite group who demanded corbyn and macdonnel punt a pro european strategy at the last GE against corbyns personal wishes , and against the majority of anti eu labour constituencies , which lost labour the GE2019 and took them to their worst defeat in a century.

Starmer is still unrepentant , and the blairites back in charge of labour that steve wishes to ignore ( surprise suprrise) are determined to take the uk back into the eu by hook or by crook.

Whatever the public wish on masse , labour will oppose it and suffer the inevitable electoral kicking  , and then sit licking their wounds as steve and his ilk have done in complete and utter denial , whilse screaming names at people.

If there is a more incompetent party in politcs when it comes to GE strategy than labour , i have yet to see them.

[cromwell]

Fact is Steve labour were told that they should apologise for their stance on brexit weren't they and you know it.

[srb7677]

What I've said is patently and demonstrably true. Despite a series of the most inept Tory administrations (the Coalition, Theresa May and now Johnson),  labour have still managed not to get themselves elected, succeeding only  in moving further away from the electorate than ever, and losing many seats that have NEVER been Tory before in the process. It's a quite incredible record of failure.  How you, the most arrogant poster on here ever, have the nerve to talk about arrogance in others is astounding.

I don't have to "speak for the working class", the working class spoke for themselves at the last election and REJECTED labour on a colossal scale. Yet here you are, claiming you "seek to make things better for the working class" when you haven't even got the first idea what the working class even is.

That is the operation of arrogance, pal. To think you and people like you make things "better" for the working class when theyve rejected your policies over and over again. Starmer cannot save it now. When people who used to vote Labour would now rather vote for the fecking Tories than risk having the zealots and harpies that calls itself the current party anywhere near government, then the Labour party is dead. And it is dead because of the arrogance of people like you who by your own admission are telling us to feck off because we are bigots.

Sure Steve. I'll gladly feck off before I'd ever have anything to do with a party supported by the likes of you.

Feel better after that little rant do you? Lol.

The whole tirade smacks of arrogance of course, the assumption that you speak for all.

[Sampanviking]

No, we accept that there is no longer a monolithic block that makes up the working class.There was a time when Jack Dash could have gotten on his bike, shouted "They are all out in the Royals!" and the London Docks would have closed down by the time he had taken his bicycle clips off.

It ain't like that no more. In fact it wasn't ever really like that. And Steve knows that. But he likes to enjoy his dream.

Of course when not making things "better" for the poor and unfortunate at home, such persons are also much excited at the thought of making things "better" for the poor, unfortunate and oppressed abroad.
Need I list the "success" stories?

[Borchester]

Your problem is that you imagine you speak for - that your views are representative of - the entire working class.

No, we accept that there is no longer a monolithic block that makes up the working class.There was a time when Jack Dash could have gotten on his bike, shouted "They are all out in the Royals!" and the London Docks would have closed down by the time he had taken his bicycle clips off.

It ain't like that no more. In fact it wasn't ever really like that. And Steve knows that. But he likes to enjoy his dream. 

[DeppityDawg]

Your problem is that you imagine you speak for - that your views are representative of - the entire working class. Your whole politics are based upon that arrogant assumption, reinforced as it is by the fact that most of your mates agree with you, . Anecdote central.

But you do not speak for all of us any more than I do, just a certain segment.

What I seek to do in politics is to make things better for the working class via higher minimum wages, an end to exploitative and insecure work contracts, full workers' rights, the right to join a trade union if you wish to, capped rents and security of tenure, more social housing, more affordable housing to buy. Solid bread and butter issues. I don't want to ignore all that and instead pander to bigotry and/or narrow-mindedness as some would rather have us do.

If that does not float your boat, that's your business. But it is extremely arrogant to assume you are representative of all. I am just as working class as you are and know plenty of others who harbour the same desires for economic reform of their lives. Unlike you I do not use such anecdotal evidence to assume I speak for everyone. Politics is about persuasion based upon policy offerings. Some people are potentially persuadable. Others probably not. I suspect you are amongst the latter.

What I've said is patently and demonstrably true. Despite a series of the most inept Tory administrations (the Coalition, Theresa May and now Johnson),  labour have still managed not to get themselves elected, succeeding only  in moving further away from the electorate than ever, and losing many seats that have NEVER been Tory before in the process. It's a quite incredible record of failure.  How you, the most arrogant poster on here ever, have the nerve to talk about arrogance in others is astounding.

I don't have to "speak for the working class", the working class spoke for themselves at the last election and REJECTED labour on a colossal scale. Yet here you are, claiming you "seek to make things better for the working class" when you haven't even got the first idea what the working class even is.

That is the operation of arrogance, pal. To think you and people like you make things "better" for the working class when theyve rejected your policies over and over again. Starmer cannot save it now. When people who used to vote Labour would now rather vote for the fecking Tories than risk having the zealots and harpies that calls itself the current party anywhere near government, then the Labour party is dead. And it is dead because of the arrogance of people like you who by your own admission are telling us to feck off because we are bigots.

Sure Steve. I'll gladly feck off before I'd ever have anything to do with a party supported by the likes of you.

[cromwell]

Your problem is that you imagine you speak for - that your views are representative of - the entire working class. Your whole politics are based upon that arrogant assumption, reinforced as it is by the fact that most of your mates agree with you, . Anecdote central.

But you do not speak for all of us any more than I do, just a certain segment.

What I seek to do in politics is to make things better for the working class via higher minimum wages, an end to exploitative and insecure work contracts, full workers' rights, the right to join a trade union if you wish to, capped rents and security of tenure, more social housing, more affordable housing to buy. Solid bread and butter issues. I don't want to ignore all that and instead pander to bigotry and/or narrow-mindedness as some would rather have us do.

If that does not float your boat, that's your business. But it is extremely arrogant to assume you are representative of all. I am just as working class as you are and know plenty of others who harbour the same desires for economic reform of their lives. Unlike you I do not use such anecdotal evidence to assume I speak for everyone. Politics is about persuasion based upon policy offerings. Some people are potentially persuadable. Others probably not. I suspect you are amongst the latter.

I don't think Steve that he or any of us claim to speak for the whole working class,what happened at the referendum and subsequently the general election was a large segment of the working class took their vote elsewhere, they were fed up of being used,abused and patronised by a labour party wedded to metropolitan values london centric and plastic socialists.

Now you may disagree,call them gammons,extremists,old,fascists whatever floats your boat but you cannot escape that areas solid labour since 1930's and later rejected you and still do,not because they want to be tory but because you in your views, the leadership and many labour figures piss on them and their thoughts.

If you believe you are electable without them and can point and laugh  at who they are and win then you are living in a fantasy world.

[srb7677]

He used to be ok. At least he was until he became Owen Jones. I can't think of a better reason not to vote labour than that spitting, snarling little [expletive deleted]

Your problem is that you imagine you speak for - that your views are representative of - the entire working class. Your whole politics are based upon that arrogant assumption, reinforced as it is by the fact that most of your mates agree with you, . Anecdote central.

But you do not speak for all of us any more than I do, just a certain segment.

What I seek to do in politics is to make things better for the working class via higher minimum wages, an end to exploitative and insecure work contracts, full workers' rights, the right to join a trade union if you wish to, capped rents and security of tenure, more social housing, more affordable housing to buy. Solid bread and butter issues. I don't want to ignore all that and instead pander to bigotry and/or narrow-mindedness as some would rather have us do.

If that does not float your boat, that's your business. But it is extremely arrogant to assume you are representative of all. I am just as working class as you are and know plenty of others who harbour the same desires for economic reform of their lives. Unlike you I do not use such anecdotal evidence to assume I speak for everyone. Politics is about persuasion based upon policy offerings. Some people are potentially persuadable. Others probably not. I suspect you are amongst the latter.