Zimbabwean with football dreams to be kicked out of UK

[Streetwalker]

Ah, that helps explain your support. 

Although Canada is in HM commonwealth.  You might be ok SW, if you don't start dealing crack.

So was Rhodesia Barry though Im not sure of the timeline with this family . But yes my support is maybe influenced by having an idea how the system works . Instead of deporting people who have grown up here we should be looking to deport criminals who havent .

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/outrage-over-rochdale-grooming-gang-20329794

[Borchester]

Did the court suggest that he be deported after serving his sentence? I have no idea how these things work, but it could be that if he is not being deported he should expect to serve extra time.

[Barry]

Ah, that helps explain your support. 

Although Canada is in HM commonwealth.  You might be ok SW, if you don't start dealing crack.

[Streetwalker]

Well as far as I know having dreams of being a footballer is not a mitigating circumstance, going off the rails he certainly won't be the first or last, he paid his debt for that, what I don't get why his Mum couldn't sort out his citizenship or when he was getting his qualifications in prison nobody could advise him on what needed to be done. Maybe somebody can enlighten me?

Probably because our immigration system is so lax its was a case of we can always do what needed to be done  tomorrow  . I personally have been going in and out of the country on a foreign passport since I was in long trousers with the immigration telling me I need to get a leave to remain stamp in it .
(I do of course always argue that there is message from his Queen inside the cover that tells him to stop talking and wave me on my way  )


A day queuing up at Lunar house and over a hundred quid lighter didnt appeal somehow so I just keep saying yes Ill do it asap but never do of course because after all , Im British . 

[Sheepy]

Well as far as I know having dreams of being a footballer is not a mitigating circumstance, going off the rails he certainly won't be the first or last, he paid his debt for that, what I don't get why his Mum couldn't sort out his citizenship or when he was getting his qualifications in prison nobody could advise him on what needed to be done. Maybe somebody can enlighten me?

[patman post]

I see no reason why the law shouldn't be upheld and enacted as it would apply to a non-British resident.   
However, if the Home Secretary decides there are mitigating circumstances and suspends the sentence for a certain number of years, I see that as OK.   
But the costs of obtaining British citizenship should not be waived...

[Thomas]

The point at which someone ceases to.be a "foreigner" is when they PAY to become a citizen which they are not.

Doesnt apply in this story john. The individual in question didnt pay to become a uk citizen if i read that aright , his parent did , the point under discussion is how long it takes for someone born abroad but brought up here to become a uk citizen , and all the caveats and anomalies under discussion.

Tough rhetoric and tub thumping arguments which are loud but hold little substance are irrelevant.

TED HEATH changed that

john politicians change things all the time , nothing stays the same forever , and things change to suit the modern world. As i said before , you seem to want to lock the uk into a perpetual time warp somewhere between 1850 amd 1950 , which isnt going to happen.

Boris johnson was born in the usa , of turkish ancestry , and brought up an englishman. Do you deny johnson is english?

This guy is similar , born elsewhere brought up in england of non english ancestry.

Yet you say he is a foreigner.

I'd welcome it back in the EXACT terms it was before then,

yes john but thats not going to heppen , as the empire isnt coming back , and there comes a point where modren twenty first reality with its modern problems has to override fantasy and delusion and wet dreams of yesteryear.

I hope you now see where I get my "attitude" from.

No i dont. What i see is an out of touch  attitude of little relevance to this story based on personal bitter experience if not delusion.

For me the guy in the story is english or british. He should not be getting deported to a foreign country. Im with streetwalker on this.

[johnofgwent]

i think you are missing the point of what streetwalker is sayng john , and comparing this story to a personal and bitter episode of your own life as your are sometimes want to do.

The point is  when does someone become a native and cease being a foreigner?

I agree with streetwalker , if you are born in a stable it doesnt make you a feckin horse , so if you are born abroad and spend your formative years in the yookay , then for me that makes you a native.

Place of birth , and bits of paper proclaiming citizenship are mere footnotes in your personal identity.

On the other hand , i do sympathise with the government in trying to deal with the topic of immigration and stories like this. These anomalies will crop up from time to time , and must be treated on an individual basis.

I would say someone who has lived in the uk since he was five should be entitled to call himslef a uk citizen when folk in overseas territories who have never set foot in these islands get to automatically call themselves bwitish simply because a few redcoats landed on those shores at some point in history and proclaimed it part of the empire.

national identity is a personal thing , and down to the individual , which is why a welshman like you living in wales gets to see himself as british instead of a taffy.

How would you like someone saying to you to feck off back to your own country across the severn despite persumably living in wales your entire life?

The point at which someone ceases to.be a "foreigner" is when they PAY to become a citizen which they are not.


I've made this point many times. When I was born, the act of being born to a woman with at least one foot on soil forming part of the United kingdom, or one of its imperial interests, or its dependent territories, gave me the right to be identified as a British SUBJECT, a citizen of the United Kingdom And Colonies just as Cliff Richard is.


On the day I was born and for fourteen and a bit more years after, until Ted Heath fucked things up with his bloody immigration act, it didn't matter if your mother was the latest concubine of Haile Selassie, Mao TSE Tung, Kim Il Sung, King Fahd or President Kennedy, if you dropped out while your mother was on "British" soil as described above then regardless of any citizenship rights you might have as a result of who your parents were, you automatically had the right, if you wanted to exercise it, to be given a British passport identifying you as described above AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM with that.


TED HEATH changed that.


I'd welcome it back in the EXACT terms it was before then, because to claim it you had to accept you were first and foremost a SUBJECT of the British Crown and THEN a citizen entitled to the rights that came through acceptance of being subject to the crown.


I'm sure you've seen my take on the Asians kicked out by idi Amin. Their parents or grandparents were British Subjects, resident in India then a colony under imperial rule. My grandfathers king, who was also their emperor, made it known he desired subjects from his empire in India to leave their homes and travel to the dark continent, there to manage and administer his colonial interests there in his name. Idi Amin chucked out the descendants of those citizens who answered the call of their emperor. My attitude to people seeking to immigrate into the UK from India Pakistan and Bangladesh, all of whom chose to unite behind Ghandi in telling the British to F@@@ off, and then engaged in bloody genocide to establish partition as witn sded by my great uncle then in the RAMC, is *** VERY *** different.


This sort of bollix us being dragged up because despite spending millions of the taxes we citizens can ill afford, a whole horde of lazy, penny punching scum have doubtless ignored the demand that they sort out their UK residence status and are about to find they, or their kids deported.


As others on this forum have said, and I know having worked abroad, the requirements to become a citizen in those places before the EEC became the EU were made crystal clear to me in the language of THAT country (translate to your language at your expense not the country's). I replied that I did not plan working there for a period requiring this, and that was fine. I do remember signing documents on leaving telling their secret police I no longer lived or worked there.....


I hope you now see where I get my "attitude" from.


I will not be changing it any time soon.


We do not do retrospective legislation.


Things have changed


David Lammy is of course famous for demanding and insisting he be considered a citizen without being a British subject. Most republicans are naturally of the same view.


My attitude to those who want a free ride derives directly from the changes that have been made. To be a British citizen from 1972 or whenever that 1971 act kicked in required your parents and probably your grandparents to be British Subjects.

[Thomas]

Yep but wouldn't this satisfy both sides of rhe argument?

obviously not john of gwents position and well known hatred  , but for the rest of us reasonable minded mortals i would say so cromwell.

We arent talking about someone just off the boat enacting major criminal activity , but a complex situation where someone who sees  himself as british is now being threatened with deportation to a country that is foreign to him.

[cromwell]

surely he should be entitled to full citizenship anyway cromwell after living in the uk for 21 of 26 years , especailly his formative years from 5 upwards.

Yep but wouldn't this satisfy both sides of rhe argument?

[Thomas]

Yep I agree and he should be given a second chance,foolishness in youth is not unknown,maybe he should be given the right to apply for full citizenship based on him staying out of real trouble for say 10 years,

surely he should be entitled to full citizenship anyway cromwell after living in the uk for 21 of 26 years , especailly his formative years from 5 upwards.

[cromwell]

Im all for the automatic deportation of all and any foreign criminals Barry regardless of the crime and their current immigration status .
'Foreign' though for me is not a bloke who has lived in the UK since the age of 5

Yep I agree and he should be given a second chance,foolishness in youth is not unknown,maybe he should be given the right to apply for full citizenship based on him staying out of real trouble for say 10 years,

[Thomas]

Then blame his father.


What the headline SHOULD but of course does NOT say is "father of son who was such a disappointment he paid for his two other siblings to become British citizens, but chose not to do this for the third ....


For when you actually read the story you will see that is the case. The father bought citizenship - that's how you get it by the way - for this drug dealers brothers, but somehow never got round to bothering when the third failed to succeed.


I have no sympathy. I had to fight my own way while my brother's got it f**king easy, just as my father had to while his elder brother got a cushy ride. No f**ker came to help me.

i think you are missing the point of what streetwalker is sayng john , and comparing this story to a personal and bitter episode of your own life as your are sometimes want to do.

The point is  when does someone become a native and cease being a foreigner?

I agree with streetwalker , if you are born in a stable it doesnt make you a feckin horse , so if you are born abroad and spend your formative years in the yookay , then for me that makes you a native.

Place of birth , and bits of paper proclaiming citizenship are mere footnotes in your personal identity.

On the other hand , i do sympathise with the government in trying to deal with the topic of immigration and stories like this. These anomalies will crop up from time to time , and must be treated on an individual basis.

I would say someone who has lived in the uk since he was five should be entitled to call himslef a uk citizen when folk in overseas territories who have never set foot in these islands get to automatically call themselves bwitish simply because a few redcoats landed on those shores at some point in history and proclaimed it part of the empire.

national identity is a personal thing , and down to the individual , which is why a welshman like you living in wales gets to see himself as british instead of a taffy.

How would you like someone saying to you to feck off back to your own country across the severn despite persumably living in wales your entire life?

[johnofgwent]

Im all for the automatic deportation of all and any foreign criminals Barry regardless of the crime and their current immigration status .
'Foreign' though for me is not a bloke who has lived in the UK since the age of us 5

Then blame his father.


What the headline SHOULD but of course does NOT say is "father of son who was such a disappointment he paid for his two other siblings to become British citizens, but chose not to do this for the third ....


For when you actually read the story you will see that is the case. The father bought citizenship - that's how you get it by the way - for this drug dealers brothers, but somehow never got round to bothering when the third failed to succeed.


I have no sympathy. I had to fight my own way while my brother's got it fucking easy, just as my father had to while his elder brother got a cushy ride. No fucker came to help me.

[Streetwalker]

He was given 6 years for drug trafficking and assault. He's a foreign national.
He's spent a long time in England, but now he has to go back. Obviously an emotional time for him, but we don't want violent drug dealers.

Im all for the automatic deportation of all and any foreign criminals Barry regardless of the crime and their current immigration status .
'Foreign' though for me is not a bloke who has lived in the UK since the age of 5