Afghanistan - greatest foreign policy disaster of a generation?

[Thomas]

Well the taliban can be defeated quite easily but it would require the obliteration of the whole of the place using nukes thereby killing innocents too,not acceptable of course.

Not sure i agree with you here cromwell. I thought the taliban were a sort of militarised religious movement , so not only are you fighting a group of people , you are fighting an ideology.

I dont think there is a military solution to defeating them , and certainly nuking the place would put the uk and usa in dangerous territory , with four nuclear powers in the afghanistan region , for whom the devastation of a nuclear strike in afghanistan would have extreme consequences which would no doubt force retaliation to the west and severe casualties in the process , all for a bit of rock and sand and religous nutjobs.

The bottom line america and its appendage the uk have made a cant of themselves as sampan says. All that time money and more importantly lives wasted.

[Sheepy]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/taliban-take-over-afghan-city-s-radio-station-and-ban-music-from-airwaves/ar-AANiZC4?ocid=msedgntp
I guess you don't like sugar sugar then.

[papasmurf]

They now admit they let girls go to school to learn girl stuff (like how to give their husband a decent blow job) until the age of twelve, instead of shooting them in the head...

According to the late Lemmy (Motorhead.) He was convinced American girls were taught to do that at school.

[Sampanviking]

Afghanistan is bordered by — clockwise from 12 o'clock — Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, China (a bit), India (though disputed Kashmir), Pakistan, Iran and Turkmenistan. 

Pakistan seems happy to let the Taliban migrate to Afghanistan.   
Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Turkmenistan are all pro Russia, and will probably take whatever the Kremlin line is — this could be based on the importation of drugs and Islamic unrest in regions like Chechnya.

So possibly only China, India and Iran are majorly concerned about refugees and Taliban violence moving in to their territories. Maybe the rest of the world should just sit back, let the Vietnam-style evacuation and withdrawal continue, and wait to see what develops...

India does not control any border with Afghanistan.

[patman post]

Afghanistan is bordered by — clockwise from 12 o'clock — Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, China (a bit), India (though disputed Kashmir), Pakistan, Iran and Turkmenistan. 

Pakistan seems happy to let the Taliban migrate to Afghanistan.   
Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Turkmenistan are all pro Russia, and will probably take whatever the Kremlin line is — this could be based on the importation of drugs and Islamic unrest in regions like Chechnya.

So possibly only China, India and Iran are majorly concerned about refugees and Taliban violence moving in to their territories. Maybe the rest of the world should just sit back, let the Vietnam-style evacuation and withdrawal continue, and wait to see what develops...

[johnofgwent]

Why is the National Army collapsing so quickly??

Largely because government officials and elected people pay bribes to be allowed to escape alive

Interestingly, there was a special UN representative for Afghanistan on the Today program this morning and he was saying that there are signs of a more Inclusive and Tolerant rule in the big cities that have just fallen. Early days, but we will see.

This is BBC Bullshit at its finest

They now admit they let girls go to school to learn girl stuff (like how to give their husband a decent blow job) until the age of twelve, instead of shooting them in the head...

[Sheepy]

Interestingly, there was a special UN representative for Afghanistan on the Today program this morning and he was saying that there are signs of a more Inclusive and Tolerant rule in the big cities that have just fallen. Early days, but we will see.

A special representative then, SPV, oh well that changes everything. Don't kid yourself, the Russians are relying on the Chinese string pullers in Pakistan. Or they might need more than a show of force at the border.

[DeppityDawg]

This is not the first time that Western trained armies have totally failed against lightly armed insurgents. The same happened in Iraq, where the fully equipped Iraqi Army, abandoned Heavy Armour in the face of ISIS attack, prompting some to call them little more than a delivery service!
So, why cannot the West train a decent foreign army?

Because the West doesn't fight wars anymore, Sampanski. It "manages conflicts". It is more interested in ticking politically correct boxes for its domestic audience than in the actual purpose of its armed forces, which is to fight and win conflicts. There are posters on here who will try to pretend otherwise, but that is the truth. Its not one your Russian friends suffer with

As for training "foreign armies", you can put an AKM in anyones hands and call him (or her now) a solider. It won't make it true. But that's the place at which most western countries have arrived at today. If ever the people of this country are called upon to defend their homes and families as the "tribal fighers" of that country have done for generations, they'd be in deep, deep shit. Complacency rules when much of the population thinks they are "suffering" if they lose their internet connection

[cromwell]

I'm not kidding myself about anything. I'm really a non interventionist. We can't sort out every ill in the world as we have enough of our own. We can't even control our own borders.
Bush and Blair are responsible for the mess. They will never be held to account.

On both those points I don't disagree,it was the cosy picture of a lot of tribal leaders sat round peacefully chewing the fat.

[Barry]

Sorry Baz you and SPV  are wrong ....SPV is following the party line that there's no problem,but yep it's their country but don't kid yourself that there isn't going to be a return to stone age caliphate brutality and a very hard time especially for women or anyone that disagrees or crosses some islamic nutjob.

I'm not kidding myself about anything. I'm really a non interventionist. We can't sort out every ill in the world as we have enough of our own. We can't even control our own borders.
Bush and Blair are responsible for the mess. They will never be held to account.

[Streetwalker]

Sorry Baz you and SPV  are wrong ....SPV is following the party line that there's no problem,but yep it's their country but don't kid yourself that there isn't going to be a return to stone age caliphate brutality and a very hard time especially for women or anyone that disagrees or crosses some islamic nutjob.

Your right cromwell , the islamic nutjobs will pretend to be anything from Afgan army to child minders in Kabul whilst under the watchful eye of western forces . Once we left and they would have waited as long as it took they returned to their original settings .
There has been some resistance from the western trained army and some reported war crimes from the Taliban . The government forces though know as we do how this will end so its not surprising their heart is not in it . Fleeing is the only option for anyone not fancying life in 610 AD  and another refugee crisis looms .

The place is a mess and not somewhere we should have ever gone . History alone should have told us to keep well clear ,a message it is sending again since our withdrawal .

[cromwell]

SPV, you have a fair insight into international conflicts. It does seem that there is no fighting going on in Afghanistan. It is a peaceful coup. Where's the footage of street fighting and smoke and fire?
I can imagine the Afghan men all meeting up and saying "Thank Allah those Yanks and foreigners are gone". We can get back to our own tribal lives we were leading 20 years ago. And they all shake hands and tell the Yankee backed administrations to move over.

Sorry Baz you and SPV  are wrong ....SPV is following the party line that there's no problem,but yep it's their country but don't kid yourself that there isn't going to be a return to stone age caliphate brutality and a very hard time especially for women or anyone that disagrees or crosses some islamic nutjob.

[Sheepy]

Well obviously, the Americans don't look at maps, Pakistan is next door and the Taliban fought a war of attrition which the Americans always lose and try as they might or might not, they couldn't cut off the supply lines, so both sides just kept supplying each other until it all ended in tears and the Chinese have sway over the Pakistani government although we all pretend it is somehow a different situation, reality says something completely different. So I guess SPV hinting at the Taliban being the choice for now there are other plans afoot.

[Barry]

SPV, you have a fair insight into international conflicts. It does seem that there is no fighting going on in Afghanistan. It is a peaceful coup. Where's the footage of street fighting and smoke and fire?
I can imagine the Afghan men all meeting up and saying "Thank Allah those Yanks and foreigners are gone". We can get back to our own tribal lives we were leading 20 years ago. And they all shake hands and tell the Yankee backed administrations to move over.

[Sampanviking]

Does anyone actually bother looking at the maps and looking at the numbers and really think about what must be happening on the ground?
If you do, you will be forgiven for thinking that phrases such as "Taliban Advance" really are a "Crock o S*i*e"

What is plain as your nose, is that there are no front lines and no Taliban divisions rolling forward. Nor can a core of a supposed 60,000 fighters appear in the necessary concentrations in so many places all at the same time.

I think there can be very little doubt, that what we are seeing is a popular uprising by the Afghan people, under the flag of the Taliban (for now) against an Afghan Government that had no credibility with the general population and which is instead seen as nothing more than a puppet government, installed by an outside invader.

Why is the National Army collapsing so quickly? Largely I would guess as because these are fighters that signed up for wages and who have no conviction to fight and indeed are highly likely to be open to being bought to join the insurgents, especially where both sides are largely local.

Interestingly, there was a special UN representative for Afghanistan on the Today program this morning and he was saying that there are signs of a more Inclusive and Tolerant rule in the big cities that have just fallen. Early days, but we will see.