How could direct democracy work?

[Sheepy]

The Westminster party have a very short memory span, the populists put a party together in a month and come voting time they were bigger than the combined Westminster party.
They may well have bought themselves a little time, but that is fast running out. They needed zero media coverage unlike the Westminster party who rely on it constantly.

[Thomas]

I totally agree. Some rational sense at last!

Im not sure whats rational about a one off example from 16 years ago toots as a barometer for the status quo forevermore.

If you look on this section of the forum , dynamis posted only last year that the uk was among the least satisfied with democracy in europe if not the world.

Bearing in mind the uk has some pretty stiff competition as well.

[Thomas]

I don't see it happening. I don't think the people want it.


I've said before the people got a chance to start this off back in 2005. With Blair at his most unpopular PetercKellner launched a party dedicated to voting as the majority of the constituents directed. Yes there were many flaws but you had to start somewhere.


Kellners "yourparty" died at birth, the level of support shown was miniscule.


I do not think the British electorate want this level.of engagement.

im not sure i agree with you john.

First of all , im not just talking specifically about direct democracy , but i think there is a massive appetite for change.

You are talking about 2005 , 16 long years ago , and think about all the things that have changed politically speaking in that time. The lib dems have been smashed , the SNP have risen to power and smashed labours stranglehold in scotland , UKIP/Brexit party rose to prominence and took millions of votes , little seats but put enough pressure on the tories to have them running scared and hold a brexit ref.

Back in 2005 , people still largely voted along tribal two party (my father voted labour so i will ) lines , now millions hold no party loyalty.

Tens of thousands of new young voters are coming out to vote each year , and demographics are changing , but the two old political parties and the fptp two party system isnt.

Labour have lost scotland , lost northern england( back in 2005 this would have been unthinkable) and are now the party of the south east london metropolitian liberal middle classs rather than the working class.

For the tories , they feel safe at the moment having jumped ship onto the brexit bandwagon and with labour being in turmoil , but how long are people going to put up with an incompetent conservative one party state in England?

Sorry john , i appreciate your example , but im not sure its relevant to this discussion. Things are changing rapidly , and its only a matter of time till the english catch up with scotland and start voting in other parties more suited to them than labour or tory.

Nothing stays the same or lasts forever . You might not have direct democracy , who knows , but im pretty confident the fault lines in english politics are widening and fracturing more and more each year.

[T00ts]

I don't see it happening. I don't think the people want it.


I've said before the people got a chance to start this off back in 2005. With Blair at his most unpopular PetercKellner launched a party dedicated to voting as the majority of the constituents directed. Yes there were many flaws but you had to start somewhere.


Kellners "yourparty" died at birth, the level of support shown was miniscule.


I do not think the British electorate want this level.of engagement.

I totally agree. Some rational sense at last!

[johnofgwent]

I don't see it happening. I don't think the people want it.


I've said before the people got a chance to start this off back in 2005. With Blair at his most unpopular PetercKellner launched a party dedicated to voting as the majority of the constituents directed. Yes there were many flaws but you had to start somewhere.


Kellners "yourparty" died at birth, the level of support shown was miniscule.


I do not think the British electorate want this level.of engagement.

[Sheepy]

Oh dear - you really think you know my mind? You are a rare person indeed. 

It will be Oh dear come voting time.

[T00ts]

Not only that but you believe voting Conservative changes things, but then not according to all the people who voted on a manifesto.

Oh dear - you really think you know my mind? You are a rare person indeed. 

[Sheepy]

Thank you but I don't think I'm alone - although I tend to be in that position often - I think I have an ally in Nick. 

Not only that but you believe voting Conservative changes things, but then not according to all the people who voted on a manifesto.

[Thomas]

Thank you but I don't think I'm alone - although I tend to be in that position often - I think I have an ally in Nick. 

so 30 % plus potentially two people off the forum.

When scotland gains independence , potentially we could possibly help you with taking 5 half million dissenters out of the equation , but somehow i cant see the citizens of the kingdom of england putting up with the old two party system much longer.

If scotland and northern ireland leave  over the next few years, and queen lizzie kicks the bucket , that feeling of perpetual status quo might just be slightly undermined if im not understating that fact.

The winds of change might just whistle rather loudly down those old westmisnter corridors.

[T00ts]

dont shoot the messenger toots , im only posting what the polls are saying in contrast to what you believe.

We will add your one small voice to the thirty per cent minority in future.

Thank you but I don't think I'm alone - although I tend to be in that position often - I think I have an ally in Nick. 

[patman post]

...... I'm not totally convinced DD is the answer,but for sure we need change and it done properly.

Why not run it like the Jury System? Everyone between the ages of 18 and 70 is liable to be called up by lottery-based selection to serve four or five years with all their salary and usual expenses fully paid.

Members of each party would select candidates to stand in 73 constituencies (based on the old EU constituencies), and those elected would form the management nucleus of the Parliamentary parties around which the conscripted members would congregate.  The whole House would have to elect the PM from one of the 73 party candidates, and the PM would have to serve five years — unless kicked out by Parliament.

That way we'd all have a chance to vote for a candidate, and those called to serve would be members of the public...

[Thomas]

I can always tell when you are getting riled, your posts get longer. The kilt must be causing a draught. 

You know I have never been asked my opinion on a poll, but I won't hold that against you. 

dont shoot the messenger toots , im only posting what the polls are saying in contrast to what you believe.

We will add your one small voice to the thirty per cent minority in future.

[Thomas]

That isn't what I said,I don't want to stick with what we've already got,the lords the fptp and have being saying so for years.

What I said was (and look again) I'm not totally convinced DD is the answer,but for sure we need change and it done properly.

no problem cromwell , apologies if i misunderstood.

Toots seems to be out on a limb of her own then on this forum from what i can see.

[T00ts]

Im not putting you down in the slightest toots. We are debating , we are disagreeing , and i was replying to your earlier point where you implied i was somehow treating you different because you are female , so i hope i have corrected that and you accept what i have said.

Toots it isnt about being a martyr or playing last wordism.

There is a clear and logical argument , long in the making , for reforming the westminster two party system. You dont agree , and have said why , and vice versa with me.

Its quite clear and a general consensus that the FPTP two party westminster system you support is an outdated anomaly that many people want reformed.

in this yougov polling tracker over the last two years , polls consistently show only a minority (30% at last poll shown ) support the continuation of FPTP against PR.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-we-change-our-current-british-voting-system

and in this article from last year redfield and wilton report that..
So it seems to me you are merely in denial im afraid.

As well as being in a minority.

well i dont think anyone likes losing toots , but it happens to us all.

The fact is though in this case i belive you are wrong , and have said why and supplied evidence.

You in turn merely supply blind faith in a system that by all the evidence is disliked by the majority.

Eh?

People have been clambering for change for decades if not more. Nothing to do with recent history or brexit , it goes way deeper.

The 1979 scottish devolution referendum fiasco , the simmering resentment for twenty years til labour had to support and implement devolution in the late nineties , the election in 2007 of the first SNP government in scotland , the demands for electoral change across the uk in 2011 and the miserable compromise as it was called over the AV referendum , all predating the antics of westmisnter and the brexit referendum aftermath.

That before we even talk about the irish troubles , ireland leaving the uk in the early twentieth century and so on.

You seem willfully blind to much that has happened , and seem to be implying some sort of voting utopia prior to 2016 where there was none , and hadnt been for decades before.

Take off the rose tinted glasses please toots , and wake up and smell the coffee. The discontent has been years in the making.

I can always tell when you are getting riled, your posts get longer. The kilt must be causing a draught. 

You know I have never been asked my opinion on a poll, but I won't hold that against you. 

[cromwell]

I can't honestly see how you could be in a worse situation than what you currently have. No one , no one can guarentee better governance in any system as i keep saying , that isnt a reason to stick with what you have.

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a better result "next time" is madness as they say. Johnson and his party won in 2019 not because they were universally loved , but simply because the tories jumped on the populist support for brexit where before a large part of them had opposed leaving the EU.

Now you are out ,people are reverting to type , and getting pissed off at the tories . The problem is there isnt any alternative , ie labour are a complete joke and even more hated , so by sticking with what you have for fear of ending up worse , you are merely dishing up more of the same and causing even more frustration among the electorate.

Change will happen in my opinion wether you like it or not , as the younger generations wont keep voting on tribal lines for the same two old joke parties , and you can see that happening in scotland as the old unionist generation who always voted two party die off and the younger generations come online and are prepared to vote for differing parties with differing policies and arent hamstrung like we were at one stage into voting red or blue tory.

That isn't what I said,I don't want to stick with what we've already got,the lords the fptp and have being saying so for years.

What I said was (and look again) I'm not totally convinced DD is the answer,but for sure we need change and it done properly.