Yesterday UK had highest number of new covid cases of any country.

[Sheepy]

I highlighted the point that should dispel the belief that everyone needs to be vaccinated.  If you believe it will protect you, take it.  But there's no reason for a healthy person to, and you haven't explained why they would.

As we all know I am not a Fascist or try and force my will on anyone, but they are being starved of real news, maybe you should start a thread highlighting the pushback going on around the globe, it is growing and if you look for it is well covered around the internet. 

[Scott777]

The problem Ive got with this scott  is that you highlight the parts of the report that lean toward your standpoint yet ignore

'' Vaccines do an excellent job of preventing serious Covid illness and deaths ''

Which means to me the vaccine reduces the Covid to a minor illness .  As I say Ive not seen any argument that changes my mind that the more people that take the vaccine the better it will be for everyone .

I highlighted the point that should dispel the belief that everyone needs to be vaccinated.  If you believe it will protect you, take it.  But there's no reason for a healthy person to, and you haven't explained why they would.

[Streetwalker]

Conclusion from The Lancet, and explanation.  (SAR is rate of spreading it)

"The SAR (secondary attack rate) in household contacts exposed to the delta variant was 25% (95% CI 18–33) for fully vaccinated individuals compared with 38% (24–53) in unvaccinated individuals."

"SAR was not significantly higher in unvaccinated (38%, 95% CI 24–53) than fully vaccinated (25%, 18–33) household contacts."

So, according to them, vaccination causes a difference of 13%, which is not statistically significant.  As I understand this, 13% is not significant because it can be accounted for by random variation.


https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S1473-3099%2821%2900648-4

The problem Ive got with this scott  is that you highlight the parts of the report that lean toward your standpoint yet ignore

'' Vaccines do an excellent job of preventing serious Covid illness and deaths ''

Which means to me the vaccine reduces the Covid to a minor illness .  As I say Ive not seen any argument that changes my mind that the more people that take the vaccine the better it will be for everyone .

[Scott777]

Conclusion from The Lancet, and explanation.  (SAR is rate of spreading it)

"The SAR (secondary attack rate) in household contacts exposed to the delta variant was 25% (95% CI 18–33) for fully vaccinated individuals compared with 38% (24–53) in unvaccinated individuals."

"SAR was not significantly higher in unvaccinated (38%, 95% CI 24–53) than fully vaccinated (25%, 18–33) household contacts."

So, according to them, vaccination causes a difference of 13%, which is not statistically significant.  As I understand this, 13% is not significant because it can be accounted for by random variation.


https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S1473-3099%2821%2900648-4

[Scott777]

Well my take on it JOG is exactly that . It reduces the viral load by large numbers .
From a Bricklayers  viewpoint the more people that are jabbed the better , Ive not seen any argument that changes my mind

Well, I'm going to post this from the BBC (not because you should take their word for it), but given that the BBC is pro-vaccine, there must be some truth to it.  "Individuals who have had two vaccine doses can be just as infectious as those who have not been jabbed."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59077036

And from the Lancet: "Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts. "

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

However, the study is based on PCR, which means we really have no idea whether the vaccine affects infection.

[Barry]

I did explain in another  post why I have largely kept away from this because it is in many ways pointless as T00ts has said it's like brexit people talk at each other and nobody listens.

And you have changed imo (that's just an observation btw) Through various evolutions of the forum I've known you the best part of 11 years.

You we're always a solid Tory but not now and as said you trust no one,you appear at least to me to very unhappy at lost freedoms,whatever the rights and wrongs these restrictions are only temporary and it's not just here but worldwide,though here are not as restrictive as other countries.

Im not sure of you're opinion on this but an example is care home workers being required to be vaccinated,people say this is wrong it's taking away their rights and freedoms,what of the people being cared for and paying for it don't they have the right to say I don't want you caring for me unless you're vaccinated.

People have of course the right to refuse but many jobs have requirements attached,if you don't like them go and get another job.

They will pass and it's not as if this is anything new though because in order to travel to other countries you have for many years been required to have vaccinations.

And over the years you were long an advocate of ID cards perhaps you've changed your mind on that but if not that's a restriction of freedom......permanently unlike a covid passport or requirement to wear a mask.

Yeah though you're right I do feel strongly about this,and it's the ludicrous claims that covid is a made up crisis to suit pharmaceutical companies,Bill Gates or to enable govt control.All arrant nonsense imo though I'm not saying that's your opinion because I don't know.

As for you being vaccinated that is your business and choice I'm not advocating forced vaccination but if govt here or abroad say you can't do this or that because of that decision it's something to be lived with on a temporary basis.

I'm still a solid Tory, but the Tory party are not. They've become wet as tripe.

Care workers should be able to say no to an experimental jab, if they are coerced into it, they should be able to sue their employer or the government if they have any injurious side effects. After all, if this jab is so safe, why have the government given away our right to litigation in case of injury?

I still am in favour of ID cards. I never attached a requirement to have an injection to get one.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but you must admit, some people have got very rich out of all this, and we all know it is not you or me!
I'm not sure how temporary this is, but you can be sure in 6 months they'll be telling you to get another jab. 

Anyway, I'm going to leave it there. I am extremely unhappy at lost freedoms, you are right. I know I'm in a minority on here, but no one should equate my resistance to vaccine passes with me being anti vaccines, as I am not. I am fiercely in favour of human rights, especially autonomy over one's own body.

That is all.

[Streetwalker]

Sorry SW but says who ?

The vaccine companies stated categorically there was no evidence it stopped you catching it from, or passing it on to, another person.

At best it reduces the viral load by large numbers which is important and beyond that it seems to interfere with cell penetration which is where the most at damage is done and why people die.

Well my take on it JOG is exactly that . It reduces the viral load by large numbers . 
From a Bricklayers  viewpoint the more people that are jabbed the better , Ive not seen any argument that changes my mind 

[johnofgwent]

The basic fact is that jabbed people are less likely to catch a virus so are in turn less likely to pass on said virus to another . If they are infected they are less likely to pass it on to another jabbed person so the infection rate in the population diminishes the more people that are jabbed .

So yes by protecting themselves they are protecting others including the selfish feckers who refuse to take the jab . Without the jab we would probably still be in lockdown . Theres a thought eh .

Sorry SW but says who ?

The vaccine companies stated categorically there was no evidence it stopped you catching it from, or passing it on to, another person.

At best it reduces the viral load by large numbers which is important and beyond that it seems to interfere with cell penetration which is where the most at damage is done and why people die.

[T00ts]

T00ts has said it's like brexit

Before anyone questions this - I did write this as part of post earlier today which I subsequently deleted. 

[cromwell]

It might not be coercion in your opinion, but it is in mine and T00ts says call it coercion if you wish, and I do.
Changed from what?
That may or may not be the case. As you will know from recent posts, I do not trust this government at all. You seem to hang on their every word, allegedly following the science.

It's obvious that you feel very strongly about this issue and you seem to be holding back something. I'd say you are at least as strong on this subject as you are on capital punishment. You obviously believe the government and NHS line on vaccines and back it to the hilt.

I do not. I question everything, as I am sure you used to do. But perhaps you are a "much changed person".

I did explain in another  post why I have largely kept away from this because it is in many ways pointless as T00ts has said it's like brexit people talk at each other and nobody listens.

And you have changed imo (that's just an observation btw) Through various evolutions of the forum I've known you the best part of 11 years.

You we're always a solid Tory but not now and as said you trust no one,you appear at least to me to very unhappy at lost freedoms,whatever the rights and wrongs these restrictions are only temporary and it's not just here but worldwide,though here are not as restrictive as other countries.

Im not sure of you're opinion on this but an example is care home workers being required to be vaccinated,people say this is wrong it's taking away their rights and freedoms,what of the people being cared for and paying for it don't they have the right to say I don't want you caring for me unless you're vaccinated.

People have of course the right to refuse but many jobs have requirements attached,if you don't like them go and get another job.

They will pass and it's not as if this is anything new though because in order to travel to other countries you have for many years been required to have vaccinations.

And over the years you were long an advocate of ID cards perhaps you've changed your mind on that but if not that's a restriction of freedom......permanently unlike a covid passport or requirement to wear a mask.

Yeah though you're right I do feel strongly about this,and it's the ludicrous claims that covid is a made up crisis to suit pharmaceutical companies,Bill Gates or to enable govt control.All arrant nonsense imo though I'm not saying that's your opinion because I don't know.

As for you being vaccinated that is your business and choice I'm not advocating forced vaccination but if govt here or abroad say you can't do this or that because of that decision it's something to be lived with on a temporary basis.

[Scott777]

The basic fact is that jabbed people are less likely to catch a virus so are in turn less likely to pass on said virus to another . If they are infected they are less likely to pass it on to another jabbed person so the infection rate in the population diminishes the more people that are jabbed .

Please clarify.  Less likely than who?  Have you told the citizens of Israel that they should have far fewer cases, according to you?

[Barry]

The basic fact is that jabbed people are less likely to catch a virus so are in turn less likely to pass on said virus to another . If they are infected they are less likely to pass it on to another jabbed person so the infection rate in the population diminishes the more people that are jabbed .

So yes by protecting themselves they are protecting others including the selfish feckers who refuse to take the jab . Without the jab we would probably still be in lockdown . Theres a thought eh .

Tell me something I don't already know!
If jabbed people were immune and could not catch it or pass it on, then it might, and I say might be logical to treat them differently. People such as yourself, who are immune through infection can have the jab and then you may have extra immunity? Or maybe just the same as you already had. People who have had Covid are safer than anyone else.

I refuse to say whether I have had the jab. How about that? It's none of anyone's business.

[Scott777]

You are comparing what T00ts said to the Nazis,and this is why we have this nonsense of the Nuremberg trials an people serving fake legal papers on others because they disagree or  are fooled by lies on the web.

Then Barry says I'm holding back,you cannot debate this when people are resorting to nazi references.

Because it's the same principle.  People are using what they call science to justify segregation.  The Jews were diseased.  That was one justification.  It was for the common good.  The unvaccinated will spread disease, and so must be segregated.  Explain the difference in the principle.

[Streetwalker]

You are missing my point a bit, T00ts.
People who are jabbed have a greater chance of survival against the virus. It protects them. It does not protect anyone else.
Therefore, why treat people differently who have not had the jab?
It is illogical and discriminatory for no reason.

The basic fact is that jabbed people are less likely to catch a virus so are in turn less likely to pass on said virus to another . If they are infected they are less likely to pass it on to another jabbed person so the infection rate in the population diminishes the more people that are jabbed .

So yes by protecting themselves they are protecting others including the selfish feckers who refuse to take the jab . Without the jab we would probably still be in lockdown . Theres a thought eh . 

[cromwell]

Evidence of 95% effectiveness, please?  Evidence of jabs protecting the unvaccinated, please?  If you want to help everyone, learn about vitamins, exercise, fresh air, Ivermectin, Zinc, and then tell us about it, instead of trying to justify illegal behaviour.  The Nazis justified camps for Jews because they were a health threat to the 'good' Germans.  How long before your warped understanding of the 'common good' tells you that it's ok to put the unvaccinated into isolation?  And then punishment, perhaps.

You are comparing what T00ts said to the Nazis,and this is why we have this nonsense of the Nuremberg trials an people serving fake legal papers on others because they disagree or  are fooled by lies on the web.

Then Barry says I'm holding back,you cannot debate this when people are resorting to nazi references.