Think Keir needs another rug.

[Good old]

you cannot insinuate labour are the flagbearers of hope and democracy when labour have spent my entire life time opposing democracy at every turn.

Labour mps cook and cunningham were the flagbearers for the disgracefull anti democratic amendment that turned a yes vote into a no in the 1979 devolution referendum in scotland.

Labour opposed any sort of democratic vote on brexit , where even the limp wristed liberals made fun of you in 2015.

Labour stood against democracy , including leader keir starmer and many of the top party officials and refused to accept the democratic outcome of a vote  from 2016 to 2019 , and still refuse to accept that democratic vote to this day.

I dont know how anyone with any sense could put labour and democracy in the same sentence , or insinuate labour are needed in govenment for our "democracy " to survive.

Its laughable rubbish yet again from you good old , empty half hearted weasel words.

Here you go again .do I claim what we call democracy is spotless? No I don't. So don't try and with your usual crap to try and obscure the actual message. I only refer to our democracy, it's not pure by some way but, as you will not find pure democracy anywhere in this world being used it must be because in fact pure democracy can create more uncertainty than we presently experience. Democracy does not have to have a conscience it does not  differentiate between truth and lie, It is not a God but an idea, and there for it's only really useful if ,just as with a good horse , it is moulded to its surroundings and uses.  Having said that we do mould God in a similar way as well don't we ? Referendum  as the clown, Cameron, aided by a half asleep Parliament used it was tanter mount to opening the stable door, because referendum could not be used to bypass parliament, since legally proved. And any supposed promise not only should not have been made ,but in fact couldn't be made without being invalid.
The truth as you well know is ,I yearn for you, or anyone here to tell me what they mean by change to what we have as a form of democracy.  I keep putting this in no response .

[Thomas]

Scottish newspapers reporting that the CWU and many other trade unions are taking stock and distancing themselves from starmers latest reincarnation of new labour as many trade unions and the membership "dont like what they see".

I find it difficult to see how anyone can possibly argue new labours disasterous policy of punting themsleves to tory marginals at the expense of their traditional voting base will work now anymore than it did in 2010 or 2015?

When blair first tried this in 1997 , at first he offered hope to millions and of course back then the left had no where else to go. Its a different story in 2021.

We see time and again under starmers reign how labours own traditional backers are constantly turning against them. You need to keep your voting base and win more converts , not piss on their backs as the inept starmer has constantly done. Of course , good old still thinks this is 1997.

[Thomas]

 It's a case of knowing that our democracy has to survive,

you cannot insinuate labour are the flagbearers of hope and democracy when labour have spent my entire life time opposing democracy at every turn.

Labour mps cook and cunningham were the flagbearers for the disgracefull anti democratic amendment that turned a yes vote into a no in the 1979 devolution referendum in scotland.

Labour opposed any sort of democratic vote on brexit , where even the limp wristed liberals made fun of you in 2015.

Labour stood against democracy , including leader keir starmer and many of the top party officials and refused to accept the democratic outcome of a vote  from 2016 to 2019 , and still refuse to accept that democratic vote to this day.

I dont know how anyone with any sense could put labour and democracy in the same sentence , or insinuate labour are needed in govenment for our "democracy " to survive.

Its laughable rubbish yet again from you good old , empty half hearted weasel words.

[Good old]

Its been said over and over and over again why Labour don't get elected, but after all these years the party faithful STILL cannot grasp why. The liberal left have spent 20+ years now creating a massive race and gender based victim group narrative, all based on academic "theories" and polemic partisan politics, which basically holds that you are automatically a victim if you tick certain boxes, and automatically "privileged" if you don't. And then they wonder why the people they've shoved into these "oppressor" boxes won't vote for them.

Recently I watched a documentary on the International banking crises of 2007/2008, and on who was (largely) to blame I can agree with you (I know, it doesn't often happen). The selling of sub prime mortgage products, the toxic packaged 'investments' based on them to pension companies, and the absolutely immoral betting on the failure of these products by the very people who'd sold them, perfectly demonstrates everything that is wrong with capitalism and the rampant corruption and cronyism that infects even the highest tiers of our governments - Tory or Republican, sure they were heavily and in many cases mostly to blame for what happened, but don't try to pretend that either the Democrats in the US or the Labour Party in the UK either didn't know or in many ways abet what happened and share in the blame for it. One other thing I will grant you is this - I used to believe the Labour government of the time wilfully spent us into huge deficits, when in reality, much of it was the result of having no other choice but to bail out the banks to prevent a global catastrophe

Yet despite the corruption and sleaze of the Tories, despite their feeding out contracts, favours and fortunes to their old school pals in business and commerce, despite the excesses of a party that in reality couldn't give a flying feck about the working class, so many of that working class STILL cannot bring themselves to trust or vote for the Labour party anymore. What you should be telling us is not that a breaking point is coming, but WHY after all these crises Labour still cannot get elected when it should have happened at least twice by now if Labour had any credibility with the electorate whatsoever. But I'll tell you why it won't happen. It won't happen because the Corbynite far left still infect the party and the people cannot trust the party to eject them. It won't happen because the Angela Rayners and David Lammy's constantly push divisive agendas based on race, gender, sexuality or (dis)abilty which neglect and even blame whole swathes of the population, instead of unifying the party behind common causes.

The only thing thats obvious after all these years, is that Labour is in no way, shape or form representative of the working class it claims to have been set up for. It is comprised of (and largely voted for by) a middle class core of often university educated elitist and idealists, whose idea of opposition is to sneer at national flags and to oppose democratically decided referendum results on the basis that the people who voted in it were too thick to understand what they were voting for

I had written an extended reply to this very fair reflection of one or two various issues. And I thank you for it.
This is much briefer because my reasons for persisting with backing the maintenance of what is the real purpose of Labour, does not alter It's not for me a case of avoiding all of the issues you raise. It's a case of knowing that our democracy has to survive, if not as it is but a form not far removed from what it is. That is if we support  the capitalist system that is the life blood of all of us in this democracy.
Yes what we have is two cheeks of an arse. That's because it is trying to be two sides of capitalism . It's my opinion one side gets far more shit attached it in the all round .And  in eleven years they have done nothing to dispel that opinion. They are undermining our democracy ,their ethical behaviour laughs in the face of the ethics and law that is the basis of our democracy. I know dam well , nothing or no group or party is perfect, but  if we have lost the ability to agree to disagree with people we are not completely in tune with, at the peril of that democracy then I'm of the opinion our democracy is in mortal danger.
So, what's the alternative? And  this is where even here nobody fully answers. Not surprised by that.because quiet honestly the answer is the alternative is always going to be governed by nature. The human is primed to to disagree, Only the ability to agree to disagree, or allow one self to be forced to agree can control that.
It's quiet democratic to keep voting for one party individual , but if by doing so you lose the will to remove a party ,individual that is corrupt then it follows you will have lost the means to do so.
At this moment in time far to many people are advocating we follow this path and the picture I paint is a real possibility.
I personally would not let the fact that I don't agree with everyone in my party be the main reason for rejecting its use to remove my real enemy. The Tories, certainly don't.and that's the real reason for what you see as the situation being correct. I do thank you DD, because at least it's a very balanced response to some of my views.

[Thomas]

All true and I particularly like your line, about "creating a massive race and gender based victim group narrative."

I would add the rider that the only people who have any faith in banks are the liberal left. They see them as vast, amoral monolithic blocks run by ice cold financial geniuses and who make nations dance to their tune. Possibly I am a bit cynical having worked for the other side, but in most cases bankers have struck me as low grade incompetents who could not run a Christmas club.

The international banking crises as i said to our blairite friend wasnt the reason for new labours demise as we all know. He seems to think it was , and like many others of his political persuasion since 2010 , have punted out this victimhood narrative new labour were unfairly blamed for it.

That certainly wasnt the case in scotland borkie. What i do remember many scots blaming new labour for was their systematic unassailable belief in the sham of PFI , as i have mentioned many times , where the  cost of a particular project was often paid back at 7 times the original quote  , and left the scottish nhs massivly in debt with PFI alone to the tune of 80 billion.

The tories im sure when they came into office in 2010 found the same the snp government did circa 2007 onwards , that new labour had left them multiple ticking timebombs on many fronts that they were left  to deal with and clear up.

New labour may or may not as deppity said been to blame for the banking crises , but there was a list the length of your arm that they were to blame for.

[Borchester]

Its been said over and over and over again why Labour don't get elected, but after all these years the party faithful STILL cannot grasp why. The liberal left have spent 20+ years now creating a massive race and gender based victim group narrative, all based on academic "theories" and polemic partisan politics, which basically holds that you are automatically a victim if you tick certain boxes, and automatically "privileged" if you don't. And then they wonder why the people they've shoved into these "oppressor" boxes won't vote for them.

Recently I watched a documentary on the International banking crises of 2007/2008, and on who was (largely) to blame I can agree with you (I know, it doesn't often happen). The selling of sub prime mortgage products, the toxic packaged 'investments' based on them to pension companies, and the absolutely immoral betting on the failure of these products by the very people who'd sold them, perfectly demonstrates everything that is wrong with capitalism and the rampant corruption and cronyism that infects even the highest tiers of our governments - Tory or Republican, sure they were heavily and in many cases mostly to blame for what happened, but don't try to pretend that either the Democrats in the US or the Labour Party in the UK either didn't know or in many ways abet what happened and share in the blame for it. One other thing I will grant you is this - I used to believe the Labour government of the time wilfully spent us into huge deficits, when in reality, much of it was the result of having no other choice but to bail out the banks to prevent a global catastrophe

Yet despite the corruption and sleaze of the Tories, despite their feeding out contracts, favours and fortunes to their old school pals in business and commerce, despite the excesses of a party that in reality couldn't give a flying feck about the working class, so many of that working class STILL cannot bring themselves to trust or vote for the Labour party anymore. What you should be telling us is not that a breaking point is coming, but WHY after all these crises Labour still cannot get elected when it should have happened at least twice by now if Labour had any credibility with the electorate whatsoever. But I'll tell you why it won't happen. It won't happen because the Corbynite far left still infect the party and the people cannot trust the party to eject them. It won't happen because the Angela Rayners and David Lammy's constantly push divisive agendas based on race, gender, sexuality or (dis)abilty which neglect and even blame whole swathes of the population, instead of unifying the party behind common causes.

The only thing thats obvious after all these years, is that Labour is in no way, shape or form representative of the working class it claims to have been set up for. It is comprised of (and largely voted for by) a middle class core of often university educated elitist and idealists, whose idea of opposition is to sneer at national flags and to oppose democratically decided referendum results on the basis that the people who voted in it were too thick to understand what they were voting for

All true and I particularly like your line, about "creating a massive race and gender based victim group narrative."

I would add the rider that the only people who have any faith in banks are the liberal left. They see them as vast, amoral monolithic blocks run by ice cold financial geniuses and who make nations dance to their tune. Possibly I am a bit cynical having worked for the other side, but in most cases bankers have struck me as low grade incompetents who could not run a Christmas club.

[Thomas]

Five million of the party faithful left when they realised Blair was Tory Mark 2.

...and uk newspapers and media by march 1998 were ful of headlines like "ever had the feeling you have been cheated" with protests widely regarding welfare and education policies under new labour.

Tony blairs legacy is ashes. The man governed under the sunshine of an economic boom that the tories left him , on top of facing a burnt out wreck of a party in the two horse race that you or i could have beaten .

After thirteen years in power , the man and his party left us uncountable billions of PFI debt , crumbling schools badly built , a cost of living crises and mass uncontrolled immigration , and a labour party so badly damaged by his right wing red tory policy it has failed to ever again seem credible to working class voters.

...but bojo and his troops had a christmas party so we should vote new labour back in good old tells us as they are a credible alternative. LMFAO.

[Thomas]

The only thing thats obvious after all these years, is that Labour is in no way, shape or form representative of the working class it claims to have been set up for. It is comprised of (and largely voted for by) a middle class core of often university educated elitist and idealists, whose idea of opposition is to sneer at national flags and to oppose democratically decided referendum results on the basis that the people who voted in it were too thick to understand what they were voting for

I will be honest , i found corbyn a threat to scottish indy , and feared my compatriots would flock back to labour under him .

Starmer? Not so sure.

Good old all rather reminds me of when new labour mark two under milliband put the parties most right wing and divisive mp , jim murphy , in as the branch manager in scotland. Most of us could hardly believe what we were seeing and could hardly contain our glee , and he went on as you saw to take labour to their worst defeat in scottish political history at the time , losing all but one of their mps.

Labours problem as we know is that they never listen , and merely talk to each other in echo chambers with their we know best attitude. What seems like great strategy to the likes of starmer , and his supporters like good old quite obviously comes across as plain suicide to the rest of us.

Quite clearly they dont see their own politics as part of the problem as good old hints. The same clowns like milliband( starmers mate and adviser ) cooper or reeve among amny other were the same failures pre corbyn who were political duds from 2010 to 2015  , so what does labour do?

Offer the same rejects back up to the electorate with their pro european centrist stance that the public have rejected time and again.

No matter how many times this same tragic comic farce is played out it never seems to make any difference in the minds of people like good old.  Scotland has been rejecting blairites since 2007 , and quite clearly england doesnt want them either.

[Sheepy]

The restrictions you are suffering under johnson and the conservatives due to covid are a shadow of what would be happening under starmers new labour.

On top of that , as we know  , if labour get into power the uk will be tied back in behind closed doors to every eu rule and regulation on the planet , so much so we will be members in all but name only.

I would imagine the tories will be putting EU flags around the new labour party with starmer in von der liars top pocket on every billboard in England , along with the fact that england will face a ritual worldwide humiliation being dragged back into the eu as i have said many a time. Not to mention the damage they will do to my country.

But then I don't believe they will get into power they will be cut off before then, it is only the MSM saying they will, they have said it all before.

[Thomas]

. Nobody will forget they all agree on punishing the electorate.

The restrictions you are suffering under johnson and the conservatives due to covid are a shadow of what would be happening under starmers new labour.

On top of that , as we know  , if labour get into power the uk will be tied back in behind closed doors to every eu rule and regulation on the planet , so much so we will be members in all but name only.

I would imagine the tories will be putting EU flags around the new labour party with starmer in von der liars top pocket on every billboard in England , along with the fact that england will face a ritual worldwide humiliation being dragged back into the eu as i have said many a time. Not to mention the damage they will do to my country.

[Thomas]

Normal service resumed, Thomas. As expected.it's all been commented on.
Just one remark is worth a mention. Apparently I should accept me and my party are part of the problem and not the answer. Well I'm well aware me and my party are not part of any answer you dream of. I for one have no wish break a system that even cack handedly at times allows and absorbs contradiction and outright opposition. Considering how attached you are to continuous Tory rule , one could suppose some form of unanswerable one party state would be the answer you seek? In the absence of what the answer to this, is from you. It must be thought that you are jumping the gun to accuse me or the Labour Party of being part of a problem.unless of course you have a viable democratic alternative .?

Aye i have a viable democratic alternative , scottish independence.

While we are in the uk though , the idea the tories are bad and we have to vote labour , who are part of the poblem  , into power to resume normal service as per the nineties and noughties under blair and brown is such laughable rubbish that its hard to take serious.

Its hard to believe any sane rational being would keep repeating the same mistake over and over by punting the failed blairism , and expecting a differnet result , but thats what you new labour types do.

It all rather reminds me of labour under michael foot in the eighties........still punting the failed politics of the sixties and seventies unable to move on , until reality finally dawned on them and kinnock began to try and modernise them.

The public dont want a return to the failed politics of tony blair anymore than they wanted in the eighties a return to the failed politics of labour in tte sixties and seventies.

Thats something thoughwe are going to have to teach you at the ballot box time and again before it finally sinks in.

[papasmurf]

Its been said over and over and over again why Labour don't get elected, but after all these years the party faithful STILL cannot grasp why. 

Five million of the party faithful left when they realised Blair was Tory Mark 2.

[DeppityDawg]

It's obvious that for eleven years or so Labour, hasn't been able to get the better of the Tories at the ballot box.
But after the Tories , with massive media help had created the fiction of Labour , blame for a wide spread international banking crisis . It's been one crisis after another, and counting. There will come a breaking point, say what you will.

Its been said over and over and over again why Labour don't get elected, but after all these years the party faithful STILL cannot grasp why. The liberal left have spent 20+ years now creating a massive race and gender based victim group narrative, all based on academic "theories" and polemic partisan politics, which basically holds that you are automatically a victim if you tick certain boxes, and automatically "privileged" if you don't. And then they wonder why the people they've shoved into these "oppressor" boxes won't vote for them.

Recently I watched a documentary on the International banking crises of 2007/2008, and on who was (largely) to blame I can agree with you (I know, it doesn't often happen). The selling of sub prime mortgage products, the toxic packaged 'investments' based on them to pension companies, and the absolutely immoral betting on the failure of these products by the very people who'd sold them, perfectly demonstrates everything that is wrong with capitalism and the rampant corruption and cronyism that infects even the highest tiers of our governments - Tory or Republican, sure they were heavily and in many cases mostly to blame for what happened, but don't try to pretend that either the Democrats in the US or the Labour Party in the UK either didn't know or in many ways abet what happened and share in the blame for it. One other thing I will grant you is this - I used to believe the Labour government of the time wilfully spent us into huge deficits, when in reality, much of it was the result of having no other choice but to bail out the banks to prevent a global catastrophe

Yet despite the corruption and sleaze of the Tories, despite their feeding out contracts, favours and fortunes to their old school pals in business and commerce, despite the excesses of a party that in reality couldn't give a flying feck about the working class, so many of that working class STILL cannot bring themselves to trust or vote for the Labour party anymore. What you should be telling us is not that a breaking point is coming, but WHY after all these crises Labour still cannot get elected when it should have happened at least twice by now if Labour had any credibility with the electorate whatsoever. But I'll tell you why it won't happen. It won't happen because the Corbynite far left still infect the party and the people cannot trust the party to eject them. It won't happen because the Angela Rayners and David Lammy's constantly push divisive agendas based on race, gender, sexuality or (dis)abilty which neglect and even blame whole swathes of the population, instead of unifying the party behind common causes.

The only thing thats obvious after all these years, is that Labour is in no way, shape or form representative of the working class it claims to have been set up for. It is comprised of (and largely voted for by) a middle class core of often university educated elitist and idealists, whose idea of opposition is to sneer at national flags and to oppose democratically decided referendum results on the basis that the people who voted in it were too thick to understand what they were voting for

[srb7677]

you are jumping the gun to accuse me or the Labour Party of being part of a problem.unless of course you have a viable democratic alternative .?

It's a pity the Labour party isn't offering such an alternative then, isnt it!

[Good old]

Normal service resumed, Thomas. As expected.it's all been commented on.
Just one remark is worth a mention. Apparently I should accept me and my party are part of the problem and not the answer. Well I'm well aware me and my party are not part of any answer you dream of. I for one have no wish break a system that even cack handedly at times allows and absorbs contradiction and outright opposition. Considering how attached you are to continuous Tory rule , one could suppose some form of unanswerable one party state would be the answer you seek? In the absence of what the answer to this, is from you. It must be thought that you are jumping the gun to accuse me or the Labour Party of being part of a problem.unless of course you have a viable democratic alternative .?