What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[Scott777]

The first casualty of war is the truth. 

It's true.  Which is why I believe we should not have anything to do with Ukraine.  I'm against helping them, just as I'm against helping Russia.  A completely neutral position.  😉

[Unlucky4Sum]

That's cause he is a deranged dictator.

Dictator yes but deranged?  I'd say clever self serving amoral manipulator.

[Nick]

I acknowledge that they did exactly what we would have done if the situation was reversed. I never could understand or simply stand the Wests holier than thou BS. I have no doubt that in reverse circumstances, you and those like you, would be the loudest screaming for blood.

The West has also invaded Sovereign countries, what makes this ok in your eyes?

What did Ukraine do to justify Russia's invasion?

[Nick]

The first casualty of war is the truth. However I am puzzled as to the mysterious destruction that seems to happen deep into Russia far beyond the range of any missiles Ukraine has. Or does Russia have a high number of industrial accidents?

It's called sabotage, conducted by anti-Putin rebels. 

[Nick]

I am not the arbiter of justice, but Putin thought it was necessary to attack Ukraine to defend Russia.

That's cause he is a deranged dictator. 

[Unlucky4Sum]

Sampan puts across an opinion with an explanation.

Unlucky4some says:  liar lair, pants on fire.


🤣

No I didn't.   The lie is the one Putin has been pushing for 10 years now ever since his tame puppet was voted out of office by the Ukraine Parliament

[papasmurf]

Sampan puts across an opinion with an explanation.

Unlucky4some says:  liar lair, pants on fire.


🤣

The first casualty of war is the truth. However I am puzzled as to the mysterious destruction that seems to happen deep into Russia far beyond the range of any missiles Ukraine has. Or does Russia have a high number of industrial accidents?

[Scott777]

Poppycock ^

The supposed 'situation' is a lie, one made up to supposedly 'jusify' invading another sovereign country so Putin could position himself as emperor of all areas with any ethnic Russians living there.

Sampan puts across an opinion with an explanation.

Unlucky4some says:  liar lair, pants on fire.


🤣

[Scott777]

Without understanding the orginal language, it is hard to get the precise meaning.
Maybe he was saying SB being a hero to some Ukrainians is a good thing.
Or maybe the construction is more "SB is viewed as a hero by some Ukrainians and that's their right"

We say similar things in the context of free speech discussions. You can defend someone's right to say something you disagree with.

Again, zero support for SB, the guy was a NAZI collaborator who committed war crimes.

He did, however, fight for Ukranian independence so I can see how he could be viewed as a heroic figure by some.

Again, we have many historical figures who were evil bastards. Many other countries have the same.  The Belgians have 2 dozen statues of Leopold II all over the place and he was a proper shit.

Can you imagine Keir Starmer or Bozo Johnson saying about Tommy Robinson, "he's viewed as a hero by some people, and that's their right"?  Free speech is nothing to do with it.  When a person in power is completely against someone, they don't tend to talk about people's rights, they tend to take a big dump on them, shut them down, call them far-right, and try to criminalise it.  So clearly Zelensky is not completely against this Nazi collaborator.  Don't you think?  🤔

[Scott777]

So you think he was justified in attacking Ukraine because you think Ukraine was about to attack Russia?

I am not the arbiter of justice, but Putin thought it was necessary to attack Ukraine to defend Russia.

Given the relative sizes of the two armies and the fact attack tends to require 3x the defenders, especially against a prepared line.  If Russia genuinely thought Ukraine was about to invade wouldn't the best solution be to dig in hard, move forces to defensive lines along the border. Mine the F@@@ out of it and wait for the Ukrainian army to smash itself to bits against your superior forces?  That would minimise your casualties, remove the risk of accidentally starting a war and maximise foreign support.

Did I say Putin thought Ukraine was about to invade?  I don't recall that.  I said they were becoming a threat.  Not invade.

The last thing you would do is launch an invasion as you lose all your advantages.  Unless, of course, the whole point is to invade.

Putin did invade, so what advantages did he lose?

Ukraine in 2022 was a far weaker army than Russia. If the plan was NATO was going to invade Russia then why hasn't NATO invaded Russia? NATO forces seem to have done everything they can to stay out despite ample pretext (eg air space incursions and even stray munitions)

You make so many assumptions and ask strange questions which don't seem to make a point, that it's quite exasperating.  What if NATO was not ready to invade?  Do you have any sensible questions?

[Unlucky4Sum]

I acknowledge that they did exactly what we would have done if the situation was reversed. I never could understand or simply stand the Wests holier than thou BS. I have no doubt that in reverse circumstances, you and those like you, would be the loudest screaming for blood.

The West has also invaded Sovereign countries, what makes this ok in your eyes?

Poppycock ^

The supposed 'situation' is a lie, one made up to supposedly 'jusify' invading another sovereign country so Putin could position himself as emperor of all areas with any ethnic Russians living there.

[Sampanviking]

So you now acknowledge that Russia invaded another sovereign country? I assume that you also now accept that Ukraine has the right to undertake any military action that it deems fit?

I acknowledge that they did exactly what we would have done if the situation was reversed. I never could understand or simply stand the Wests holier than thou BS. I have no doubt that in reverse circumstances, you and those like you, would be the loudest screaming for blood.

The West has also invaded Sovereign countries, what makes this ok in your eyes? 

[Nick]

None of which are members of the Russian Government. No one there ever said it, evena  real Firebrand like Mebvedev. Most people at the time were saying that without NATO support the Russians would have steam rolled the country in a few weeks, which was a view based on what happened when the Russians did intervene directly for a short time in both 2014 and 2015.

I still read in other posts from various members the tabloid view of Putin wanting to invade the world etc etc. I do agree with Scott on the backgroud to the crisis and have no doubt that the Maidan was a US/EU backed coup. Simply the sight of the senior EU and US officials handing out tea and cookies to the crowd make that very clear and then of course there is the Nueland phone call intercept.

So you now acknowledge that Russia invaded another sovereign country? I assume that you also now accept that Ukraine has the right to undertake any military action that it deems fit?

[Sampanviking]

The plan by Russia and Putin was to encircle and take Kyiv within about a week or less, I remember reading they expected it to be over within 2 weeks IIRC.

The Russian TV pundits and many others like Lukashenko - among others - said something like "3-4" days like it says in the title of that video "Maksimum Tri-Chetyyre Dnya" - 3-4 days

The fact is that Western support has kept Ukraine going and now that Trump may get back in, that is all threatened and that is bad for the West and for the world in general.

Imperialists should never win

None of which are members of the Russian Government. No one there ever said it, evena  real Firebrand like Mebvedev. Most people at the time were saying that without NATO support the Russians would have steam rolled the country in a few weeks, which was a view based on what happened when the Russians did intervene directly for a short time in both 2014 and 2015.

I still read in other posts from various members the tabloid view of Putin wanting to invade the world etc etc. I do agree with Scott on the backgroud to the crisis and have no doubt that the Maidan was a US/EU backed coup. Simply the sight of the senior EU and US officials handing out tea and cookies to the crowd make that very clear and then of course there is the Nueland phone call intercept.

[BeElBeeBub]

Zelensky said in a 2019 interview with Ukrainska Pravda. "He is a hero for a certain percentage of Ukrainians, and it's normal, and it's cool."

So it's "cool", which kind of sounds like he approves, but no, I'm sure it's all just accidental.  🤣

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/6768

Without understanding the orginal language, it is hard to get the precise meaning. 
Maybe he was saying SB being a hero to some Ukrainians is a good thing. 
Or maybe the construction is more "SB is viewed as a hero by some Ukrainians and that's their right"

We say similar things in the context of free speech discussions. You can defend someone's right to say something you disagree with. 

Again, zero support for SB, the guy was a NAZI collaborator who committed war crimes.

He did, however, fight for Ukranian independence so I can see how he could be viewed as a heroic figure by some.

Again, we have many historical figures who were evil bastards. Many other countries have the same.  The Belgians have 2 dozen statues of Leopold II all over the place and he was a proper shit.