What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[Good old]

It should be said that Cuba is a sovereign state that has the ability and right to maintain their own security concerns and pact alliances given that is the argument we presented for Ukraine NATOs membership. Also Cuba was actually invaded by America and was very much at risk of another American invasion had it not acted. There is more in common with Ukraine and Cuba than you might imagine if you understood history even if nuclear missles wasn't to be stationed in Ukraine which I suspect could have easily happened very much like Poland is requesting them now in any case. But even so meh. More strawman. But if you cannot see why NATO at Russias border might be a national security concern for Russia then there is no hope for you. You are a drone, can't think beyond your own nose and basically repeat the government narrative. Right or wrong this war was entirely predictable and as such wasn't some actions of paranoia. I never said Putin is pursuing peace but fulfilling objectives he set himself. The first is complete and the second is ongoing. I suspect that like us all he would rather have a peaceful conclusion to all this but if the war must continue he isn't some leader that is going to be swayed by our sanctions. The objective must be achieved one way or another so the quicker Ukraine stops f**king around and actually write down pledges they had already promised the quicker the war can end and we can rebuild their state.

Nonetheless again I have not mentioned Kosovo and yet again you bring it up? Why? Are you really so desperate to move the goal posts that you keep on playing a card nobody has brought up for the sakes of derailing debate?

Unreal as ever. The bay of pigs  was an unofficial adventure by a few thousand adventurers
Putin turns up with 150,000 plus armed with his best gear , then proceeds to use heavy artillery from beyond the border to flatten everything in sight, and you want to compare. Can you prove Poland wants Nuks? And why would they need them. Do you really think Poland would attack Russia.?
NATO is at Russias door. Fact . Has NATO  attacked Russia. .No. is NATO rushing to attack Russia now, when being asked to ?No .Your  the drone that can't see or think beyond your nose. This war was predictable in so much as Putin , had made threats and had enough military hardware to carry the threat. Nothing to do with the right he had to do it. And no reason for Ukraine, or any other sovereign state to bow to his threats.
I suspect he would like the Ukrainians to give him everything he demands, if that brings what he calls peace he will take it. He is not the only one with objectives, the Ukrainians have one to defend Ukraine against his aggression , and western opinion is hardening to aiding their efforts with all means possible. So I would suggest the quicker he stops f**king around and realises if it's peace he wants , he has to stop trying to kill Ukrainians ,and get off their turf. Of course it's not peace he wants is it. It's enough of Ukraine, to give leverage to dominate Ukrainian politics and foreign policy.
Never mind about Kosovo, as far as I'm concerned no comparison  will make his actions right. He does what he does for his own purpose. Nothing else, and all comparison is merely excuses.

[B0ycey]

Putin, is paranoid, and not at all like Kennedy, any more than the comparison. Kruschev, was within a days sailing of landing ballistic missiles with nuclear capabilities on Cuba. Proven fact. What does Putin have? Nothing just fear of. There was no massed military invasion of Cuba, or rocket attacks on Havana, or other sites on that island.
Kosovo was mentioned for two reason, Kosovo had a proven genocide, Ukraine doesn't. Kosovo, was ethnic, you ,even here say Ukraine does. Any of  these claims backed by you and others here have in common is lack of any proof in most cases and little to none in some.
The bottom line is he has no right or provable reason to be waging war in Ukraine to enforce his will on any part of that country. If he ever wanted peace he should have never done what he has done. And if now his nose is bloodied ,and he wants peace ,stop asking for it at the end of another rocket for Ukrainian children.

It should be said that Cuba is a sovereign state that has the ability and right to maintain their own security concerns and pact alliances given that is the argument we presented for Ukraine NATOs membership. Also Cuba was actually invaded by America and was very much at risk of another American invasion had it not acted. There is more in common with Ukraine and Cuba than you might imagine if you understood history even if nuclear missles wasn't to be stationed in Ukraine which I suspect could have easily happened very much like Poland is requesting them now in any case. But even so meh. More strawman. But if you cannot see why NATO at Russias border might be a national security concern for Russia then there is no hope for you. You are a drone, can't think beyond your own nose and basically repeat the government narrative. Right or wrong this war was entirely predictable and as such wasn't some actions of paranoia. I never said Putin is pursuing peace but fulfilling objectives he set himself. The first is complete and the second is ongoing. I suspect that like us all he would rather have a peaceful conclusion to all this but if the war must continue he isn't some leader that is going to be swayed by our sanctions. The objective must be achieved one way or another so the quicker Ukraine stops fucking around and actually write down pledges they had already promised the quicker the war can end and we can rebuild their state.

Nonetheless again I have not mentioned Kosovo and yet again you bring it up? Why? Are you really so desperate to move the goal posts that you keep on playing a card nobody has brought up for the sakes of derailing debate?

[Good old]

My gawd you are soooo bloody obtuse. I have already answered most of this to some extent. Putin isn't paranoid or no different to Kennedy over Cuba in any case. The idea of having NATO bases and missles on the border of Russia is indeed something he should be concerned of the same way we should be concerned if the boot was on the other foot. I haven't mentioned Kosovo, you have with your f**king strawman arguments and in regards to Bosnia and Serbia the country was split up for the sakes of the people who lived there. I could state the bleeding obvious that all the problems Ukraine have right now could easily be solved by the same model but you will just repeat a Muslims died in Kosovo again because you don't actually know the history of the break up of Yugoslavia clearly as you keep on conflating two separate events as the same thing.

As for Ukraine being bombed to shit, that was their first objective which was to destroy Ukraines offensive capability and that is now over. That objective has been achieved, the mission now is about liberating Donbass. Have you ever thought that the people who live there might have a different opinion on being part of the West? They are Russian speaking and Russian supporting districts and as such you have to question right now on who exactly are the liberators in the new phase of the Ukraine conflict.

Putin, is paranoid, and not at all like Kennedy, any more than the comparison. Kruschev, was within a days sailing of landing ballistic missiles with nuclear capabilities on Cuba. Proven fact. What does Putin have? Nothing just fear of. There was no massed military invasion of Cuba, or rocket attacks on Havana, or other sites on that island.
Kosovo was mentioned for two reason, Kosovo had a proven genocide, Ukraine doesn't. Kosovo, was ethnic, you ,even here say Ukraine does. Any of  these claims backed by you and others here have in common is lack of any proof in most cases and little to none in some.
The bottom line is he has no right or provable reason to be waging war in Ukraine to enforce his will on any part of that country. If he ever wanted peace he should have never done what he has done. And if now his nose is bloodied ,and he wants peace ,stop asking for it at the end of another rocket for Ukrainian children.

[B0ycey]

Well actually they are building 3 pipelines into China from Russia, but it makes economic sense in the way things have gone, right on the doorstep and good relations it makes sense. For both Russia and the Chinese. I am not so sure things are coming to end in Ukraine but I will keep it in mind. Unless constantly asking for more weapons is a bluff and just fed to the plebs for good measure.

Asking for weapons just makes prudent sense Sheepy. It may prolong the war but it also protects Ukraines existence. But even so I still would say war is coming to an end anyway, because the mission is scaled back. But it is only coming to an end if talks are successful. Otherwise it will just be the same war back in 2014, but with the rebels having Russian assistance which could keep going for some time yet.

[Sheepy]

Putin hasn't acted on weapons shipment yet Sheepy, so I doubt he ever will. I think what Russia want to do now is change the world order because the plan is to enhance the motherland not to destroy it. They will move their economy East and when they can the will shut off the gas to Europe as a punishment for being unfriendly. You might not know this but we are in a race between Russia building an interconnector to China and the West finding new gas and oil to buy. Besides, what people should be looking at now isn't Ukraine but Taiwan anyway. China are 5 years away from having their amphibian assault ready. When that happens they will push every single avenue for a peaceful unification. If the Americans act in the same way as they did with the Russians and tell them to get over it, they will attack the island and the Americans will have a real choice in front of them, not what they have now which is hiding between two oceans with aggressive rhetoric which they are doing now. This is ten years away I would say, but you can be sure that whatever plans Russia want from Ukraine will happen if Americas focus is somewhere else. This conflict is soon to be over I would say but unless the things that Russia are concerned about are addressed, it is merely on hiatus and not over at all.

Well actually they are building 3 pipelines into China from Russia, but it makes economic sense in the way things have gone, right on the doorstep and good relations it makes sense. For both Russia and the Chinese. I am not so sure things are coming to end in Ukraine but I will keep it in mind. Unless constantly asking for more weapons is a bluff and just fed to the plebs for good measure. 

[B0ycey]

I know you don't like it, but we are being slowly but surely dragged into an ethnic war by Ukraine and Nato the bus drivers in the US wish it so. Vlad has said if we keep sending more weapons, he will take it as a war being fought by NATO, so you had all better hope he is bluffing. As Boris has decided in his wisdom, he is sending more armour. Well, we know he hasn't really, he is being told he is sending more armour.

Putin hasn't acted on weapons shipment yet Sheepy, so I doubt he ever will. I think what Russia want to do now is change the world order because the plan is to enhance the motherland not to destroy it. They will move their economy East and when they can the will shut off the gas to Europe as a punishment for being unfriendly. You might not know this but we are in a race between Russia building an interconnector to China and the West finding new gas and oil to buy. Besides, what people should be looking at now isn't Ukraine but Taiwan anyway. China are 5 years away from having their amphibian assault ready. When that happens they will push every single avenue for a peaceful unification. If the Americans act in the same way as they did with the Russians and tell them to get over it, they will attack the island and the Americans will have a real choice in front of them, not what they have now which is hiding between two oceans with aggressive rhetoric which they are doing now. This is ten years away I would say, but you can be sure that whatever plans Russia want from Ukraine will happen if Americas focus is somewhere else. This conflict is soon to be over I would say but unless the things that Russia are concerned about are addressed, it is merely on hiatus and not over at all.

[Sheepy]

My gawd you are soooo bloody obtuse. I have already answered most of this to some extent. Putin isn't paranoid or no different to Kennedy over Cuba in any case. The idea of having NATO bases and missles on the border of Russia is indeed something he should be concerned of the same way we should be concerned if the boot was on the other foot. I haven't mentioned Kosovo, you have with your f**king strawman arguments and in regards to Bosnia and Serbia the country was split up for the sakes of the people who lived there. I could state the bleeding obvious that all the problems Ukraine have right now could easily be solved by the same model but you will just repeat a Muslims died in Kosovo again because you don't actually know the history of the break up of Yugoslavia clearly as you keep on conflating two separate events as the same thing.

As for Ukraine being bombed to shit, that was their first objective which was to destroy Ukraines offensive capability and that is now over. That objective has been achieved, the mission now is about liberating Donbass. Have you ever thought that the people who live there might have a different opinion on being part of the West? They are Russian speaking and Russian supporting districts and as such you have to question right now on who exactly are the liberators in the new phase of the Ukraine conflict.

I know you don't like it, but we are being slowly but surely dragged into an ethnic war by Ukraine and Nato the bus drivers in the US wish it so. Vlad has said if we keep sending more weapons, he will take it as a war being fought by NATO, so you had all better hope he is bluffing. As Boris has decided in his wisdom, he is sending more armour. Well, we know he hasn't really, he is being told he is sending more armour. 

[Sheepy]

Of course, there be consequences you think you can avoid them?
The price of politics: What will happen if the West really abandons Russian gas? — RT World News

Waving your fist at Vlad and repeating any old cobblers doesn't change the facts of it won't affect those pulling the strings so much as it will when you are deciding how you can heat or heat. The Uk might well have enough gas but it doesn't decide the price of it. As well as many other commodities. 

[B0ycey]

In short, whatever happened in Kosovo, is not what governs what happens in Ukraine. In short if he wants peace get out of someone else's country and stop killing its peoples. It's as simple as that.
In answer to your reasoning. If the war was about eliminating a few hundred, even  thousand Nazis, there was no justification what so ever for wrecking the whole country whilst killing its children. Ukraine starts at the border with Russia, that's what was agreed in 1991, that's what Ukrainians clearly wanted in 1991. Russia, had already annexed parts of Ukraine, in 2014. And coming to any understanding under duress to limit more  bloodshed has proved a big mistake for Ukraine, the goal posts are  at the 1991 border, mate. Putin is pissed off because they have not moved. Just because the Ukrainians have ever said they might let him piss on them, because he was already threatening destruction is no justification for his crime in attacking all parts of Ukraine ,until they concede everyone of his demands.
The rest of my post is not rambling. It makes the clear assertion that Putin, has miscalculated and f—ked up in an extensive and major fashion. Something you can not accept.
Russian defence. When was it ever likely NATO the west was ever going to invade Russia,? In most respect Russia is already bordered by NATO. Russia, could never be held down against its will ,anymore than the western world could be. The truth is Russia, suffers from the paranoia of its leader, trying to relive the politics of Russias past regarding the peoples that live next to it. In fact most of Russias excuses for this, we're not facts , they hadn't happened and may never have happened. And if anything is fact,  he Putin ,is making the case for Ukraine to have ever considered entering in to NATO. Just as it does for everyone of his neighbours that don't want him running their affairs by proxy.

My gawd you are soooo bloody obtuse. I have already answered most of this to some extent. Putin isn't paranoid or no different to Kennedy over Cuba in any case. The idea of having NATO bases and missles on the border of Russia is indeed something he should be concerned of the same way we should be concerned if the boot was on the other foot. I haven't mentioned Kosovo, you have with your fucking strawman arguments and in regards to Bosnia and Serbia the country was split up for the sakes of the people who lived there. I could state the bleeding obvious that all the problems Ukraine have right now could easily be solved by the same model but you will just repeat a Muslims died in Kosovo again because you don't actually know the history of the break up of Yugoslavia clearly as you keep on conflating two separate events as the same thing. 

As for Ukraine being bombed to shit, that was their first objective which was to destroy Ukraines offensive capability and that is now over. That objective has been achieved, the mission now is about liberating Donbass. Have you ever thought that the people who live there might have a different opinion on being part of the West? They are Russian speaking and Russian supporting districts and as such you have to question right now on who exactly are the liberators in the new phase of the Ukraine conflict.

[B0ycey]

What you have failed to do though and ignored there are obviously Nazi sympathisers within Russia even at the highest levels which rather takes the wind out of the whole Russia is denazifying the Ukraine because that's what's being sold to the Russian populace.

Im not going in to the rights and wrongs of nato expanding,what I will say though is we cannot expect a country to live under a cloud of coercion from their neighbour to suit us when they say "hey we like the look of what you've got and want the same"

I'm not a huge fan of tweets as sources Cromwell if that is what you are alluding to. There is absolutely no context to your reply in any case and those images could have been faked from some Nazi website. Nonetheless what I can tell you is what I know. Putin is very tough on nationalists and far right extremism inside Russia, so it makes sense he would also do the same for Russian speakers in Ukraine. Not that I think denazification was the primary objective for this war I might add but the excuse for his peacekeeping given I am sure his prime objective was national security due to NATO expansion. But sure, no nation should be coerced into anything and if we accept that sovereignty should be paramount we could have prevented most of the BS wars in the 21st century as well as this one. But that doesn't excuse something that should have been obvious to the West when Russia kept repeating their national security concerns to them. It is right that Ukraine should have their security honoured but their security concerns shouldn't be at the expense of another nation. If we can achieve Ukraine security without NATO membership today, you have to wonder why we didn't pursue that a few months back wouldn't you say?

[T00ts]

Well, it would be somebody else's fault, it always is, how about you just apologise to Barry and DD for a start for your behaviour. I have no interest in dragging Nick or anybody else in so you can use him or them. 

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Moderators are entitled to have an opinion and it is very clear when they are posting as ordinary members or as Mods. The rules are also clear that discussion on Mods actions or any disagreement with them should not happen on the open Forum but should be addressed by PM either to the Mods or Nick. In this case I am prepared to leave these posts as it makes it clear to other members exactly what is happening. There will be no further discussion on this and any further attempts to do so will be removed and have likely consequences.

[Sheepy]

Actually I've had enough of you and your constant sniping and crappy remarks that have been usually removed before others see them.

I am entitled to an opinion as anyone is on here,as far as drowning out anything and misusing my mod status one look at the covid section and topic after topic featuring your theories over a more than two year periods and why everybody else is a fool for not agreeing belie any of that.

However you canvass the active membership by pm if you like and if you get a majority I ain't interested who they are  just present it to Nick and Ill happily stand down.

Well, it would be somebody else's fault, it always is, how about you just apologise to Barry and DD for a start for your behaviour. I have no interest in dragging Nick or anybody else in so you can use him or them.  

[cromwell]

I find your opinions an affront because they are based on media psychology and pure lies, it isn't the first time we have been in this rodeo either, you use your position as a mod to try and drown out anything that is beyond your own level of understanding, it won't stop me pointing it out or standing up for other posters point of view, especially when they have taken the time to take in all sides before they form an opinion.

Actually I've had enough of you and your constant sniping and crappy remarks that have been usually removed before others see them.

I am entitled to an opinion as anyone is on here,as far as drowning out anything and misusing my mod status one look at the covid section and topic after topic featuring your theories over a more than two year periods and why everybody else is a fool for not agreeing belie any of that.

However you canvass the active membership by pm if you like and if you get a majority I ain't interested who they are  just present it to Nick and Ill happily stand down.

[Sheepy]

Phone call records appear to cast doubt on Ukrainian claims of Russian atrocities — RT Russia & Former Soviet Union

Well only what SPV has been telling us our Russian correspondent. RT will have only received it as a precursor for the slow drip in future correspondence. 

[cromwell]

I find your opinions an affront because they are based on media psychology and pure lies, it isn't the first time we have been in this rodeo either, you use your position as a mod to try and drown out anything that is beyond your own level of understanding, it won't stop me pointing it out or standing up for other posters point of view, especially when they have taken the time to take in all sides before they form an opinion.

Well as I've told you before if you perceive I mod in the way you describe feel free to contact the site owner with your concerns.
The fact you post some of the stuff you do belies that,speaking of which how is it going with the Yank high ranker caught by the Russians leading the Azov battalion a link which led me along a road that told me all who had a vaccine will be dead as a result within five years because Bill gates,the new world order great reset big pharma desire it so.