'Arms race of fantasy economics' - Keir Starmer set to take aim at Tory leader hopefuls

[johnofgwent]

Saw this on a news channel ticker tape but it seems Starmer's been pipped

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/13/uk-government-to-table-no-confidence-motion-in-itself

[srb7677]

Starmer probably has a point. Apart from anything else, the population is growing older and demands for pensions and NHS services are bound to increase, which means that the state will need to collect more taxes, not less.

That said, I can't see Sir Stodge winning many votes by opposing tax cuts.

That is a demographic time bomb that somehow needs to be addressed, which will involve higher taxes or swingeing cuts elsewhere unless some means can be found to mitigate this.

There have been moves to increase the reirement age. When I entered the workplace 4 decades ago I expected to retire at 65. That has now been shifted to 67. But this alone does not save enough. Plus there is the fact that as age increases more people become prone to debilitating medical conditions which do not necessarily wait until retirement. In short, the older the retirement age the more people will become long term sick before they get there, so the savings are less than absolute.

We all generally want to live as healthily and for as long as we can, and with an ageing population such healthcare is going to cost more, and somehow this needs to be paid for. I am in favour of abolishing the exemption from NI for pensioners so that the better off ones with incomes high enough to pay any would themselves be making a contribution. This alone would help but it is unlikely to be enough.

We also have the problem of adult social care for the elderly and how to fund it, especially with decent wage levels. On one level it is not unreasonable - personal responsibility and all that - to expect better off pensioners to help fund the cost of their care by the sale of housing assets they no longer need. But this is unpopular with pensioners themselves who wish to hand something on to their children, and to their children who hope to inherit. Instead they want tax payers to step in to protect their inheritances, which is not the wisest use of taxpayers' money. But if a political decision is made to do this it does somehow need to be funded. And expecting better off pensioners to themselves make some contribution is not unreasonable. 

As for pensions, they too represent a rising cost as the years go by. The scope for reducing such costs by increasing the retirement age is limited for any one size fits all age. But what about allowing those who can and choose to work longer to defer their pensions in return for a higher one later? This could be applied to both private and state pensions. It might offset some of the cost if done right.

[Borchester]

'Arms race of fantasy economics' - Keir Starmer set to take aim at Tory leader hopefuls

Sir Keir Starmer will take aim at Conservative leadership contenders later today, claiming more than £200bn of commitments made in an "arms race of fantasy economics" are not funded.

Source: 'Arms race of fantasy economics' - Keir Starmer set to take aim at Tory leader hopefuls

Starmer probably has a point. Apart from anything else, the population is growing older and demands for pensions and NHS services are bound to increase, which means that the state will need to collect more taxes, not less.

That said, I can't see Sir Stodge winning many votes by opposing tax cuts.

[Good old]

There were those who knew what he was really up to and voted for him because of that. There were those who knew what he was really up to and consequently didn't vote for him, including me. I voted for RLB. But there were a large tranche in the middle who believed he would deliver the popular policies of 2017 in an electable body. They were taken in and taken for mugs. They were successfully lied to.

And being 57 years old I have been around the block a few times and seen numerous leadership elections in the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems. And based upon this observational experience, I can say with certainty that no one has lied so completely and totally to their owm members as Starmer has in my adult memory.

And if he can lie so comprehensively and calculatedly to win a leadership election, he is just as capable of lying to the country to win a general election. You cannot trust such a proven liar on his words, only on his actions and past behaviour.

I don't doubt your sincerity on this issue , you have always on here been very clear about it. I have to say though that , there hasn't been much policy yet, from Labour, and just as well because the situation is so fluid, in a negative way , that promises now have every chance to become a self inflicted wound. So that to some degree could be the situation inside the party as things have changed beyond belief since Starmer  was elected .  You might be right about Starmer , I'm more inclined to judge him with more leeway than yourself, the country doesn't know what in detail policy he has. They all say what they might like to do probably has to the party. But only when in possession of the chalice, will he or anyone else know if any promise can be kept. 

[srb7677]

My point was that , you have no knowledge of all others , to enable your sweeping statement on Starmer to be taken as fact.
Look I know how you feel about Starmer, but  I think it's set in stone that as a politician he will deceive from time to time. So I believe you if you feel deceived. But I also have to ask how dear old Keir, was able to hoodwink all those hard nosed characters in the party that knew dam well what he offered the party.

There were those who knew what he was really up to and voted for him because of that. There were those who knew what he was really up to and consequently didn't vote for him, including me. I voted for RLB. But there were a large tranche in the middle who believed he would deliver the popular policies of 2017 in an electable body. They were taken in and taken for mugs. They were successfully lied to.

And being 57 years old I have been around the block a few times and seen numerous leadership elections in the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems. And based upon this observational experience, I can say with certainty that no one has lied so completely and totally to their owm members as Starmer has in my adult memory.

And if he can lie so comprehensively and calculatedly to win a leadership election, he is just as capable of lying to the country to win a general election. You cannot trust such a proven liar on his words, only on his actions and past behaviour.

[Good old]

It's quite obvious. As a member at the time I listened to all his pledges, then watched them all being broken afterwards.

My point was that , you have no knowledge of all others , to enable your sweeping statement on Starmer to be taken as fact.
Look I know how you feel about Starmer, but  I think it's set in stone that as a politician he will deceive from time to time. So I believe you if you feel deceived. But I also have to ask how dear old Keir, was able to hoodwink all those hard nosed characters in the party that knew dam well what he offered the party.

[srb7677]

Can't see how you would know that as a fact.

It's quite obvious. As a member at the time I listened to all his pledges, then watched them all being broken afterwards.

[Good old]

No leader has lied so totally, absolutely, and consistently to their own members than Keir Starmer.

To try and justify and excuse that on the supposed basis that they all do it is risible. Because not on that scale they don't.

Can't see how you would know that as a fact. 

[srb7677]

The problem being Starmer , hasn't cornered the market regarding using an element of deception. They all do it , they always have and always will. It will never be really good, it's just a matter of degree.
Right now what I'm hearing is a bunch of Tories spouting the same old tripe that has already led us over twelve years to the sorry situation we are in.  It's always based on someone else from outside investing in us ,used as an excuse for  when we should have invested in ourselves. And of course ,to tax or not to tax. When who to tax would probably get us nearer to a solution.

No leader has lied so totally, absolutely, and consistently to their own members than Keir Starmer.

To try and justify and excuse that on the supposed basis that they all do it is risible. Because not on that scale they don't.

[Good old]

Either they mean exactly what they say, ie billions in unfunded tax cuts that will cause the deficit to sky rocket and risk tanking the economy. And thereby destroy the Tory reputation for sound economic management.

Or they are doing a Keir Starmer, ie telling their membership what they want to hear without meaning a word of it.

Either way it isn't really good.

The problem being Starmer , hasn't cornered the market regarding using an element of deception. They all do it , they always have and always will. It will never be really good, it's just a matter of degree.
Right now what I'm hearing is a bunch of Tories spouting the same old tripe that has already led us over twelve years to the sorry situation we are in.  It's always based on someone else from outside investing in us ,used as an excuse for  when we should have invested in ourselves. And of course ,to tax or not to tax. When who to tax would probably get us nearer to a solution.

[srb7677]

Either they mean exactly what they say, ie billions in unfunded tax cuts that will cause the deficit to sky rocket and risk tanking the economy. And thereby destroy the Tory reputation for sound economic management.

Or they are doing a Keir Starmer, ie telling their membership what they want to hear without meaning a word of it.

Either way it isn't really good.

[SKY News]

'Arms race of fantasy economics' - Keir Starmer set to take aim at Tory leader hopefuls

Sir Keir Starmer will take aim at Conservative leadership contenders later today, claiming more than £200bn of commitments made in an "arms race of fantasy economics" are not funded.

Source: 'Arms race of fantasy economics' - Keir Starmer set to take aim at Tory leader hopefuls