..Why hast thou forsaken me...

[Streetwalker]

So you deny God, but not god. Clear as mud. Because God IS the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. If you don't go along with that one, you deny God.

This is my problem with religion ,  not being able to accept others beliefs . You dont own God because you say so ,my God is fine thanks without the attatchments of stories from Judea .

[T00ts]

Just 2 things stand out from that for me T00ts.

1) What if the real answer is there is no God?
2) I look after my children far better than he does his. Children's cancers, famine, religious wars!! 

I'll just content myself in the knowledge that I'm right and you're wrong 😉 😛.

So be it! 

[Nick]

I know it's not meant to be nasty and for that I'm grateful.
I know you feel it's a cop out but once again you are applying human logic. Perhaps your thought process will be fired if I simply say that life/God is eternal. No beginning and no end. Just as space has no beginning and no end. It doesn't take long before it bends the human mind!
When you ask your last question - if you mean did I see/hear a physical hand/voice of God you over-rate me. I am nowhere near worthy enough - but I know there have been times when I would vow that He has intervened and if it wasn't Him directly it was on His instigation. I am not alone or even odd in that. I am sure that if most of us look at our lives from that perspective, we will recognise moments in life when if we are prepared to recognise it, something rather miraculous happened. Sadly many would not be prepared to give Him the gratitude just assuming coincidence. Coincidence of course is possible but sometimes there comes a prompting, a thought, perhaps a warning, that can often be ignored and yes sometimes we have to stop and work out if it was our own thought or something much more profound. Once recognised though it does become easier to sort out.
There are many writings in scripture of those who have seen God or a representation, and talked to Him. There are statements where we are warned that to see God while in an unexalted form is impossible, we could not stand it. We have examples of prophets being 'lifted up' in order to see the future etc.  These writings seem to be very similar although written thousands of years apart by those we would consider uneducated. Should we so readily dismiss them? Or were they recorded their experiences to help the rest of us that have followed to hold on to the real truth? Perhaps that is the biggest decision of this earthly life. Are we prepared to accept the real truth?
I will repeat what I have said many times. To know the truth is very simple, just ask. If you really want to know, that really is all you do, and the scriptures promise that somehow you will know. It happened for me it will happen for you. The hardest thing is knowing the truth and then accepting the affect it will have on you and that is the fear that stops many even asking. All I can offer from my own experience is that it gives a joy deep in the soul like no other. It is complete peace with a total lack of fear for the future. It is knowing that no matter what, we have a Father in Heaven who cares for us in exactly the same way as we worry about our kids. Regardless of the things that happen that so many blame God for while denying any mankind responsibility, He is not answerable to us, we are only answerable to Him and our trust in Him is repaid millionfold, perhaps not when we would like but when the time is right. Sorry for such a long post.

Just 2 things stand out from that for me T00ts. 

1) What if the real answer is there is no God?
2) I look after my children far better than he does his. Children's cancers, famine, religious wars!!  

I'll just content myself in the knowledge that I'm right and you're wrong 😉 😛. 

[Nick]

So you deny God, but not god. Clear as mud. Because God IS the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. If you don't go along with that one, you deny God.
I might have mistaken your lack of capital G god as having significance, as I see abrahamic is also without a capital. If so, never mind.

I think you've mistakenly seen a god where there isn't one, I always am respectful in this. 

It's difficult to explain where God came from without quoting scripture, Nick. Which you will say was just fairy tales written by men, so I'll not bother. I see why T00ts is reluctant, too.
When you get to know God for yourself, it all makes sense. In the unlikely case that there is mass delusion on the planet, I'll live with that.

In another thread Nick calls for all religion to be banned whilst lauding the Masonic society, which happens to be a religion - believing in the "Grand Architect of the Universe". The Masons are far more religious than evangelical Christianity. Look at the Masonic rituals!
https://jashow.org/articles/where-does-the-masonic-ritual-conflict-with-the-biblepart-2/

Totally irrelevant, talk of religion and politics is banned in the Lodges, the point being that the Masons actually go out into the community, visit hospitals and the like, the church has one goal: grow the church and keep the money rolling in. 

[T00ts]

So you deny God, but not god. Clear as mud. Because God IS the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. If you don't go along with that one, you deny God.
I might have mistaken your lack of capital G god as having significance, as I see abrahamic is also without a capital. If so, never mind.

It's difficult to explain where God came from without quoting scripture, Nick. Which you will say was just fairy tales written by men, so I'll not bother. I see why T00ts is reluctant, too.
When you get to know God for yourself, it all makes sense. In the unlikely case that there is mass delusion on the planet, I'll live with that.

In another thread Nick calls for all religion to be banned whilst lauding the Masonic society, which happens to be a religion - believing in the "Grand Architect of the Universe". The Masons are far more religious than evangelical Christianity. Look at the Masonic rituals!
https://jashow.org/articles/where-does-the-masonic-ritual-conflict-with-the-biblepart-2/

An interesting article thanks. I hadn't seen it before. I had this question some time back mainly because I was brought up believing the Masonic Societies were evil. I had an in depth discussion which was very interesting some years ago which suggested that the symbols/rituals etc used could have existed in ancient times long before Masons were even a thought and have been used in many situations both good and evil. Discretion has to be used to decide if the teachings associated resonate or go against what the individual understands to be the truth. It was an enlightening moment for me and created a long thought process at the time. It's not the rituals/symbols per se but the teaching that goes with them.

[T00ts]

I think you misunderstand my line of questioning, none of which is meant in a nasty manner, I will explain.

Where God came from is of course a question I knew you didn't know the answer to but it's an important precursor question for the rest.

How he was made is a similar question to which I have had the same answer several time: He has always existed.


This is the way a Barrister would look it this;

God has always existed and he created the universe. YES.

So why can the Universe not always have existed? BECAUSE IT IS SO AMAZINGLY COMPLEX IT HAS TO HAVE BEEN CREATED.

So that makes God even more amazing and complex than the Universe then? YES.

So who created God, because we've already established something that amazing has to have been created. NO, HE HAS ALWAYS EXISTED.



So what you do is apply the same reasoning to almost exactly the same question and give 2 completely different answers, both of which you tell me are undeniable.

You then explain that you have absolutely no proof whatsoever of the undeniable facts you just gave me and that it's all faith.


Just out of curiosity, has there been anything in your life that you can definitely put down a an act of God?

I know it's not meant to be nasty and for that I'm grateful.
I know you feel it's a cop out but once again you are applying human logic. Perhaps your thought process will be fired if I simply say that life/God is eternal. No beginning and no end. Just as space has no beginning and no end. It doesn't take long before it bends the human mind!
When you ask your last question - if you mean did I see/hear a physical hand/voice of God you over-rate me. I am nowhere near worthy enough - but I know there have been times when I would vow that He has intervened and if it wasn't Him directly it was on His instigation. I am not alone or even odd in that. I am sure that if most of us look at our lives from that perspective, we will recognise moments in life when if we are prepared to recognise it, something rather miraculous happened. Sadly many would not be prepared to give Him the gratitude just assuming coincidence. Coincidence of course is possible but sometimes there comes a prompting, a thought, perhaps a warning, that can often be ignored and yes sometimes we have to stop and work out if it was our own thought or something much more profound. Once recognised though it does become easier to sort out.
There are many writings in scripture of those who have seen God or a representation, and talked to Him. There are statements where we are warned that to see God while in an unexalted form is impossible, we could not stand it. We have examples of prophets being 'lifted up' in order to see the future etc.  These writings seem to be very similar although written thousands of years apart by those we would consider uneducated. Should we so readily dismiss them? Or were they recorded their experiences to help the rest of us that have followed to hold on to the real truth? Perhaps that is the biggest decision of this earthly life. Are we prepared to accept the real truth?
I will repeat what I have said many times. To know the truth is very simple, just ask. If you really want to know, that really is all you do, and the scriptures promise that somehow you will know. It happened for me it will happen for you. The hardest thing is knowing the truth and then accepting the affect it will have on you and that is the fear that stops many even asking. All I can offer from my own experience is that it gives a joy deep in the soul like no other. It is complete peace with a total lack of fear for the future. It is knowing that no matter what, we have a Father in Heaven who cares for us in exactly the same way as we worry about our kids. Regardless of the things that happen that so many blame God for while denying any mankind responsibility, He is not answerable to us, we are only answerable to Him and our trust in Him is repaid millionfold, perhaps not when we would like but when the time is right. Sorry for such a long post.

[Barry]

Not sure anyone denies god , just dont go along with the abrahamic version of it . 

So you deny God, but not god. Clear as mud. Because God IS the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. If you don't go along with that one, you deny God.
I might have mistaken your lack of capital G god as having significance, as I see abrahamic is also without a capital. If so, never mind.

It's difficult to explain where God came from without quoting scripture, Nick. Which you will say was just fairy tales written by men, so I'll not bother. I see why T00ts is reluctant, too.
When you get to know God for yourself, it all makes sense. In the unlikely case that there is mass delusion on the planet, I'll live with that.

In another thread Nick calls for all religion to be banned whilst lauding the Masonic society, which happens to be a religion - believing in the "Grand Architect of the Universe". The Masons are far more religious than evangelical Christianity. Look at the Masonic rituals!
https://jashow.org/articles/where-does-the-masonic-ritual-conflict-with-the-biblepart-2/

[Nick]

Sadly I know for sure that you will not accept my answer. No amount of telling someone makes a difference. I can only share what I know is true which I have done. I don't profess to know all the answer to your question which is why you posed it. I have answers that satisfy me and fit with what my heart tells me is true and study has confirmed and I have studied for decades. Faith is what it is because it depends totally on trust. I try hard to be worthy and fail daily but one constant is that I know the Gospel is true, that Jesus is the Messiah promised throughout the scriptures. That He will return when the time is deemed right and sort out the mess we have all made. Nick you are not ready to hear where God came from or even my own thoughts on it. That's not meant unkindly but I would hate to be an instrument in encouraging you or anyone to make false or derogatory statements that may well have an eternal impact on you.

I think you misunderstand my line of questioning, none of which is meant in a nasty manner, I will explain.

Where God came from is of course a question I knew you didn't know the answer to but it's an important precursor question for the rest.

How he was made is a similar question to which I have had the same answer several time: He has always existed.


This is the way a Barrister would look it this;

God has always existed and he created the universe. YES.

So why can the Universe not always have existed? BECAUSE IT IS SO AMAZINGLY COMPLEX IT HAS TO HAVE BEEN CREATED.

So that makes God even more amazing and complex than the Universe then? YES.

So who created God, because we've already established something that amazing has to have been created. NO, HE HAS ALWAYS EXISTED.



So what you do is apply the same reasoning to almost exactly the same question and give 2 completely different answers, both of which you tell me are undeniable.

You then explain that you have absolutely no proof whatsoever of the undeniable facts you just gave me and that it's all faith.


Just out of curiosity, has there been anything in your life that you can definitely put down a an act of God?

[T00ts]

And herein lies the answer, the answer you know will unravel the whole theory of God and you don't want to give an answer.

Sadly I know for sure that you will not accept my answer. No amount of telling someone makes a difference. I can only share what I know is true which I have done. I don't profess to know all the answer to your question which is why you posed it. I have answers that satisfy me and fit with what my heart tells me is true and study has confirmed and I have studied for decades. Faith is what it is because it depends totally on trust. I try hard to be worthy and fail daily but one constant is that I know the Gospel is true, that Jesus is the Messiah promised throughout the scriptures. That He will return when the time is deemed right and sort out the mess we have all made. Nick you are not ready to hear where God came from or even my own thoughts on it. That's not meant unkindly but I would hate to be an instrument in encouraging you or anyone to make false or derogatory statements that may well have an eternal impact on you. 

[Nick]

Where did you come from how were you created? Are you simply a physical body and nothing else? How big is the universe? Are we alone? Where do you reckon to find the basics?

And herein lies the answer, the answer you know will unravel the whole theory of God and you don't want to give an answer. 

[T00ts]

Let's strip this back to basics.

Where did God come from / how was he created?

Where did you come from how were you created? Are you simply a physical body and nothing else? How big is the universe? Are we alone? Where do you reckon to find the basics? 

[Nick]

Why does that surprise anyone? Why wouldn't God use any means available? Since He created all He has all knowledge. Mankind has an unhealthy habit of trying to downgrade God to a level that they can understand and seemingly demand that He fit their criteria. Very misguided.

Let's strip this back to basics. 

Where did God come from / how was he created?

[T00ts]

Everything supernatural and Godly-like in the OT can be explained through science,  Immanuel Velikovsky does it in his series of books dating back to the 50's.
For example the passage relating to the first born son being taken was documented by a scholar at the time (Ipuwer). His text which is held in the Leiden Museum reads 'The plague was that bad that there wasn't a single family that hadn't lost someone'. Whilst very similar the latter takes away the mystery element that God needs to exist.

Why does that surprise anyone? Why wouldn't God use any means available? Since He created all He has all knowledge. Mankind has an unhealthy habit of trying to downgrade God to a level that they can understand and seemingly demand that He fit their criteria. Very misguided.

[Nick]

The Bible OT is the ancient record of mankind handed down through the ages through the Jewish tribes. While today there is doubt that God would speak to us directly or that there might be Prophets as accepted in ancient times there was no question in their minds. As we read the stories, the admonitions and promises and understand that God had his chosen people who had complete and utter faith in Him and obedience to him while those who drifted away or actively defied Him were given the consequences for their behaviour we have to understand how totally in charge of everything He really is. I understand that for many modern man this is simply a step too far, but as I have repeated many times it is the actions of the father of all lies that has succeeded with many to persuade them that it doesn't matter what you do, there is no future, there is no reason to be here, that happiness is riches, and who cares anyway.

I'm off the Church.

Everything supernatural and Godly-like in the OT can be explained through science,   Immanuel Velikovsky does it in his series of books dating back to the 50's. 
For example the passage relating to the first born son being taken was documented by a scholar at the time (Ipuwer). His text which is held in the Leiden Museum reads 'The plague was that bad that there wasn't a single family that hadn't lost someone'. Whilst very similar the latter takes away the mystery element that God needs to exist. 

One of the most astonishing things about the Church is that they do almost nothing for charity, the Catholic Church includes spreading the gospel as its main charity. Whereas a society that has banned religion (Masons), gives over 2 million a day to charity, 70% of which goes to the general public. 

[Streetwalker]

It is the easiest thing in the world to deny God. Any reason will do - a human construct is as good as any. Anti religious rhetoric is well practiced over thousands of years and it is compelling. Things that are beyond the understanding of mankind is dismissed as impossible but perhaps we should leave it to the Lord to have the last word.

Not sure anyone denies god , just dont go along with the abrahamic version of it .