Should Scotland become independent?

[B0ycey]

There will be 2 countries rUK & Scotland. Why in god's name would Scotland NOT have its own passport? Every other Independent State has their own, why not Scotland?
You'll have to point me to anything in this UN Right Of Self Determination you mention. You might be referring to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Article 15 states:

• Everyone has the right to a nationality.
• No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights
Where does that mention passports. If you live in a country you have a passport for that country. If any Scot feels they would rather not have a Scottish passport they can apply for dual citizenship whereby they will be given a passport for Scotland and the chosen other country
You seem to have great difficulty in dealing with the concept of Independence.
It is not bigotry to want the best for your country and it is not bigotry to seek Independence from an oppressive State. A bigot is a person who lives in a country, perhaps even born in that country, but would rather be part of another country - is that you?
PS are you a Rangers supporter by any chance?

Moray, it really actually explains why on number 2. It is because technically anyones nationality today is Scottish given Scotland is in the UK. What you are not understanding isn't that Scotland wouldn't have its own passport but you are trying to deprive someone's nationality who is by the fact of their passport currently in the eyes of the UN is as much Scottish as they are English, Irish or Welsh.

[morayloon]

Why would Scotland be tied to that? Because at the moment everyone who has a UK passport is also Scottish by the fact Scotland currently is in the UK. Everyone who owns a passport doesn't just lose that right because of Scottish independence. Scotland might issue their own passports, but they would have to honour giving one to every UK resident who has a valid UK passport if they apply to it. It is down to the UN right of self determination and if someone wants to be Scottish and British when they were once Scottish and British, human rights is a bigger factor in international law than nationalism and bigotry.

There will be 2 countries rUK & Scotland. Why in god's name would Scotland NOT have its own passport? Every other Independent State has their own, why not Scotland?
You'll have to point me to anything in this UN Right Of Self Determination you mention. You might be referring to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Article 15 states:

• Everyone has the right to a nationality.
• No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights
Where does that mention passports. If you live in a country you have a passport for that country. If any Scot feels they would rather not have a Scottish passport they can apply for dual citizenship whereby they will be given a passport for Scotland and the chosen other country
You seem to have great difficulty in dealing with the concept of Independence.
It is not bigotry to want the best for your country and it is not bigotry to seek Independence from an oppressive State. A bigot is a person who lives in a country, perhaps even born in that country, but would rather be part of another country - is that you?
PS are you a Rangers supporter by any chance?

[B0ycey]

Don't follow that: Scotland would have its own passport. Why would we be tied to the UK? I think your Labourite fantasies are blinding you to the reality of the situation. The 1707 Union will be dissolved. The 1603 Union will continue as long as the electorate wants a monarch as Head of State. We would work with the rUK, probably more than any other country. Trade with each other is important now, I can't see it diminishing when we regain our Independence.

Why would Scotland be tied to that? Because at the moment everyone who has a UK passport is also Scottish by the fact Scotland currently is in the UK. Everyone who owns a passport doesn't just lose that right because of Scottish independence. Scotland might issue their own passports, but they would have to honour giving one to every UK resident who has a valid UK passport if they apply to it. It is down to the UN right of self determination and if someone wants to be Scottish and British when they were once Scottish and British, human rights is a bigger factor in international law than nationalism and bigotry.

[morayloon]

The union would be the same as what the commonwealth is today Moray. Like it or not, an independent Scotland will no doubt rely on the UK For many things and cooperation isn't exactly a choice. And don't get me started that the current UK passport includes Scotland and that means even the English have the right to a Scottish passport whether the SNP like that or not.

Don't follow that: Scotland would have its own passport. Why would we be tied to the UK? I think your Labourite fantasies are blinding you to the reality of the situation. The 1707 Union will be dissolved. The 1603 Union will continue as long as the electorate wants a monarch as Head of State. We would work with the rUK, probably more than any other country. Trade with each other is important now, I can't see it diminishing when we regain our Independence.

[B0ycey]

An 'autonomous state within the union'? You have a queer understanding of Independence. We want out of the union and deal with rUK in the same way we would any other country. What you are speaking about is Full Fiscal Autonomy which would mean retention of the union. Oh. and if that were to happen we would not have a seat at the UN.
Still I suppose you are just displaying the same lack of understanding that the Labour Branch manager, Sarwar, displays time and again. By all reckoning, about 30% of Labour supporters support Independence.Until Labour accept that, their party will remain in the doldrums. Accepting the right to vote in a referendum may help stem the flow of voters away from Labour (might fuel the hatred of the Nats on the party's right-wingthough) but with Labour it's the blind leading the blind.

The union would be the same as what the commonwealth is today Moray. Like it or not, an independent Scotland will no doubt rely on the UK For many things and cooperation isn't exactly a choice. And don't get me started that the current UK passport includes Scotland and that means even the English have the right to a Scottish passport whether the SNP like that or not.

[morayloon]

It's hard to justify the Union at the moment @HHQQ. Scotland hasn't voted for a Tory government for god knows how many years and they still have to endure the Lizard and her morons despite their wishes. I doubt an independent Scotland will mean the end of the union in any case. An independent Scotland will just be an autonomous state within the union I expect and share many of the things that are mutually beneficial whilst having a seat at the UN.

An 'autonomous state within the union'? You have a queer understanding of Independence. We want out of the union and deal with rUK in the same way we would any other country. What you are speaking about is Full Fiscal Autonomy which would mean retention of the union. Oh. and if that were to happen we would not have a seat at the UN.
Still I suppose you are just displaying the same lack of understanding that the Labour Branch manager, Sarwar, displays time and again. By all reckoning, about 30% of Labour supporters support Independence.Until Labour accept that, their party will remain in the doldrums. Accepting the right to vote in a referendum may help stem the flow of voters away from Labour (might fuel the hatred of the Nats on the party's right-wingthough) but with Labour it's the blind leading the blind.

[srb7677]

Bad government from Westminster (actual or perceived) and in particular Brexit have played into the hands of the SNP. 

So are the latest budgetary decisions which are going to go down in Scotland like a brick-laden bucket of shite.

[B0ycey]

It's hard to justify the Union at the moment @HHQQ. Scotland hasn't voted for a Tory government for god knows how many years and they still have to endure the Lizard and her morons despite their wishes. I doubt an independent Scotland will mean the end of the union in any case. An independent Scotland will just be an autonomous state within the union I expect and share many of the things that are mutually beneficial whilst having a seat at the UN.

[HDQQ]

If the Scottish people vote for independence then it will be impossible to hold the UK together as it is. 

Regarding Great Britain - meaning this island. comprising England, Scotland and Wales and their associated offshore islands, it's only a quite a small nation. Whether you're Scots, English or Welsh, we all have a common heritage as Britons and any differences we do have are catered for by devolution and the long-standing cultural diversity that exists here.

Regarding the wider UK, by which I mean including Northern Ireland, I think it's a slightly different situation. I used to support N.I. Unionism because doing otherwise seemed like appeasing terrorists who had targeted British people. Now there's been almost peace for a long time and it's now believed the majority of people in N.I. are of Catholic background.  

On the basis that I believe Great Britain should not be divided by independence of Scotland or Wales, I realise that many Irish people also want to see their island as a single nation. 

Bad government from Westminster (actual or perceived) and in particular Brexit have played into the hands of the SNP. 

[patman post]

Cannot vote but

I'm not Scottish believe in the Union it is however for the inbitants of Scotland who actually live there permanently whether by birth or not to decide.

Agreed with all those points — it's up to Scottish voters to decide.

Same with Northern Ireland choosing its future and even though it's down to voters in both north and south, I bet it'll happen before Scotland's independence...

[morayloon]

The British Social Attitude 2022 report is out. The survey was carried out in 2021.
It asked a 3 way question on Independence ' Independence came out top recording 52% support; Devolution was on 38% while No Parlianent was backed by only 8%. A great, record result as the table in the report shows (p12).
The report also provides English attitudes toward the Constitutional question (p9) and it gives the lie to the idea that, if England had a vote on Scottish Indepence, the result would be a resounding Yes (mainly because of the ill conceived notion that we are subsidised by the English tax payers). The UK Government knows how important Scotland is to the UK how else do you explain their dodgy involvement in the Referendum?
https://bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/39477/bsa39_constitutional-reform.pdf

[Borchester]

Can't say that I care one way or another.

Independence will cheer Tommy and Morayloon up which will be nice. I am not sure how Bright Young Thing feels about things. And if the Unionists win the vote next year, then Wee Krankie will get a hiding, which will be fun.

Other than that I can't see much changing

[srb7677]

Cannot vote but

I'm not Scottish believe in the Union it is however for the inbitants of Scotland who actually live there permanently whether by birth or not to decide.

I agree that it is and of right ought to be a decision for the Scots to make.

And the rest of us should accept the outcome, whatever it is.

[Streetwalker]

I think they should stay in the Uk but would wish them well if they decided to leave .  Having seen the problems of cutting the ties from the EU of 40 years of political integration Im not sure the 400 years we have been tied to Scotland will be any easier

 Maybe we should have done the England /Scotland seperation first , we could have given Brussels a clue 

[Sheepy]

Clearly srb does, he's started a lot of them this weekend and it has provoked a bit of discussion, so fair play to him.

Which is fine, just letting him know why I haven't voted in one of them.