HS2 - Good or bad idea ?

[Baron von Lotsov]

Crony accreditation ?  Hardly.



I suppose it must piss you off that what I did got past chartered engineers so I must have known what I was doing, that sort of torpedoes your "If only the Brits would do it like the wonderful Chinese they wouldn't be so sh*t" mantra.  All they're REALLY good at is nicking intellectual property, piracy, and passing off.

Yes but that whole game is very socialist and a real drag on the economy. The primary mechanism for sorting the wheat from the chaff in China is competition. You are as good as what you have produced, not which club you belong to. We need a complete paradigm shift in the way we do things. China grew its consumer electronics industry from the ground up. Kids did it as a hobby. They are not snobby about it over there. The hobby seamlessly transfers to selling things to school friends and shortly after to the general public down in the underground markets. By the time they are 25 they are multimillionaires if they are super-smart. Our ways are antiquated. We still think in terms of the lord of the manor. The Chinese had a revolution and destroyed the upper class privilege system, and it was destroyed for good. That was holding them back in their economic progress prior to the revolution a hundred years ago.



Besides if you want these trains and reactors to work, a lot of it is microelectronics and intelligent systems. They are ahead in this field. The have the worlds fastest dedicated AI processor chips. The trains and power stations of the future will be intelligent. They will probably be able to work out the best options in an emergency better than human operators.

[johnofgwent]

Crony accreditation does not help the cause of better engineering. I know it goes on. It's along the lines of CJ announcing "I did not get to where I am today without knowing the right people"

Crony accreditation ?  Hardly.



I suppose it must piss you off that what I did got past chartered engineers so I must have known what I was doing, that sort of torpedoes your "If only the Brits would do it like the wonderful Chinese they wouldn't be so shit" mantra.  All they're REALLY good at is nicking intellectual property, piracy, and passing off.

[Baron von Lotsov]

And who in the BBC is saying that, and where did they get their qualifications to design safety critical systems ?  Or who are they quoting, and where did THEY get THEIR qualifications to design safety critical systems.

I've no idea. I was just relaying to you what was said. This radio information is extremely concise.

Because one Dr David Everett C.Eng and another Dr Phil Rees C.Eng are the named Chartered Engineers cited as the responsible authorities for the design of the two quite different nuclear plant control and monitoring software systems my co workers and I for some six years during my varied career specified, built, tested and supplied to Nuclear Electric for the two quite starkly different installations at Dungeness and Torness.



System Designs and Test Specs that similarly chartered engineers in the pay of Nuclear Electric scrutinised and declared as meeting their specifications.



A fact that more than helped my subsequent application for corporate associate membership of the BCS under the auspices as both the author of that test strategy, plan, and specification, and owner of the company under whose name the work was contracted.

Crony accreditation does not help the cause of better engineering. I know it goes on. It's along the lines of CJ announcing "I did not get to where I am today without knowing the right people"

And should those systems melt down, it is those named chartered engineers whose legal teams paid for by the liability insurance they were required to carry at astronomic cost (as was I, as the author of the safety critical system test plan) who will be crucified.



But not me, for I still have in my fire safe, with another copy in a bank vault, the signed acceptance declaration from Nuclear Electric that my authored safety critical test plan has been reviewed against the system design and requirement specs and has been found to be both satisfactory and compliant.



So in many ways, you know that seen in Patriot Games where Harrison Ford's Jack Ryan is taken to a room in the West Wing where a dubious and bent Secretary of State whips out a document from a safe and says "see this, jack, this is my get out of jail free card, have you got one of these..."



Now, I happen to say the BBC are world Class Wankers. But is that statement truly any more accurate than the one the BBC make.

I would not take that comment about the quality too seriously from the BBC. They probably read it from someone else. What we have is an industry which is stitched up by the type. I mean everyone has got a cut in it, including the insurance man. This is our nation's problem. The Chinese seem to work in a very different way. They all cooperate with one another like one big family, and they have this desire for excellence in all they do. That's simply their culture, and far different from our own, which as you are probably aware, is a culture based on cheating. It happened in the time of Adam Smith and it still goes on.



I actually like Chinese engineering. I've worked with programming Chinese microcontrollers for some time, and find it interesting the differences. The thing that stands out is their abilities to simplify systems to the bare minimum whilst retaining all functionality required. Even their language is of a similar form. They are very direct and very logical. This is why their designs are good. Good designs don't screw up, be that a chip, a railway train or a nuclear reactor. We just have to change our practices for it is causing costs of major projects to many times what they could be. China has never had a serious nuclear accident. That means more than all the bullshit in the world.

[johnofgwent]

BBC say they are "world class" nuclear reactors.

And who in the BBC is saying that, and where did they get their qualifications to design safety critical systems ?  Or who are they quoting, and where did THEY get THEIR qualifications to design safety critical systems.



Because one Dr David Everett C.Eng and another Dr Phil Rees C.Eng are the named Chartered Engineers cited as the responsible authorities for the design of the two quite different nuclear plant control and monitoring software systems my co workers and I for some six years during my varied career specified, built, tested and supplied to Nuclear Electric for the two quite starkly different installations at Dungeness and Torness.



System Designs and Test Specs that similarly chartered engineers in the pay of Nuclear Electric scrutinised and declared as meeting their specifications.



A fact that more than helped my subsequent application for corporate associate membership of the BCS under the auspices as both the author of that test strategy, plan, and specification, and owner of the company under whose name the work was contracted.



And should those systems melt down, it is those named chartered engineers whose legal teams paid for by the liability insurance they were required to carry at astronomic cost (as was I, as the author of the safety critical system test plan) who will be crucified.



But not me, for I still have in my fire safe, with another copy in a bank vault, the signed acceptance declaration from Nuclear Electric that my authored safety critical test plan has been reviewed against the system design and requirement specs and has been found to be both satisfactory and compliant.



So in many ways, you know that seen in Patriot Games where Harrison Ford's Jack Ryan is taken to a room in the West Wing where a dubious and bent Secretary of State whips out a document from a safe and says "see this, jack, this is my get out of jail free card, have you got one of these..."



Now, I happen to say the BBC are world Class Wankers. But is that statement truly any more accurate than the one the BBC make.

[Baron von Lotsov]

I'm sure they do.



I've helped design the system tests for two nuclear power station plant control systems and installed one. So pardon me if I know a bit about the subject. I have phrases for what I think about letting the Chinese anywhere near nuclear power in this country. Let's just say I'd be delighted of they parked it next to the Shard as it would remove 99% of this country's problems in one system failure.



Similarly, if you want a country with sod all interest in standards of health and safety making your transport infratructure, go right ahead. I'll stick with the ones I know provide equipment that works with out signalling systems. Which I ALSO had a bit to do with back in 94. Which is when I found the lowest bidder delivered a system whose trains went straight from the sidings to the main line regardless of whether the signal was set against them. So you want Ladbroke Grove Incidents by the bucketful ? because this is how you get ladbroke grove incidents by the bucketful.



But I think a criticism of the merits and demerits of a potential suppler who is not going to be given the remotest chance of supplying because of their god awful record on cutting corners takes the argument away from the main point here, whether HS2 is worth it or not, and i say, very very firmly, not.

BBC say they are "world class" nuclear reactors. I've had a little virtual tour of what Chinese do and it is very impressive. Take a look at the radio telescope project. It fitted together like clockwork. We need to learn off these guys. It's rare they have accidents. One exception to this was their high-speed monorail, but that works very well now and has not had any other problems. The reliability of their trains is phenomenal. In Hong Kong the record is one late out of 300 for one firm. It's our county that is useless. Technical education is shite.

[johnofgwent]

it seems to me there are too many vikings in here.



I'll have you know i'm the only viking in the village and I've got the matriarchal mitochondrial dna to prove it.

[johnofgwent]

The Chinese build nuclear power stations in 18 months.

I'm sure they do.



I've helped design the system tests for two nuclear power station plant control systems and installed one. So pardon me if I know a bit about the subject. I have phrases for what I think about letting the Chinese anywhere near nuclear power in this country. Let's just say I'd be delighted of they parked it next to the Shard as it would remove 99% of this country's problems in one system failure.



Similarly, if you want a country with sod all interest in standards of health and safety making your transport infratructure, go right ahead. I'll stick with the ones I know provide equipment that works with out signalling systems. Which I ALSO had a bit to do with back in 94. Which is when I found the lowest bidder delivered a system whose trains went straight from the sidings to the main line regardless of whether the signal was set against them. So you want Ladbroke Grove Incidents by the bucketful ? because this is how you get ladbroke grove incidents by the bucketful.



But I think a criticism of the merits and demerits of a potential suppler who is not going to be given the remotest chance of supplying because of their god awful record on cutting corners takes the argument away from the main point here, whether HS2 is worth it or not, and i say, very very firmly, not.

[viking]

I think the project is essential and the nimby attempts to kill it all to predictable.

Yes if you keep delaying a project while you launch an endless series of expensive reviews into the costs, then yes it will make the costs spiral.

It is the same mentality that was used to try and talk Brexit out of existence.



The point of HS2 (full length to the North) is that the new route provides a track that not only allows modern High Speed trains to go full speed today, but also has the capacity to allow the faster trains of the future as well. The old Victorian rail cuts simply do not have the specs to allow those kind of speeds and so they need building from fresh to start the process to begin again.



Its not the track or the sleepers the trains run on but the actual profile of the route itself, the angle and tilt of the curves and embankments etc. You cannot replicate these on old tracks as they simply are not built to allow modern trains and their potential speeds. Trying to adapt existing routes would be more expensive and destructive than building new.



There is also the potential to have double decker trains, as the French do in particular, thereby considerably increasing capacity when not limited by our old 19th century tracks with low bridges!

[Sampanviking]

I think the project is essential and the nimby attempts to kill it all to predictable.

Yes if you keep delaying a project while you launch an endless series of expensive reviews into the costs, then yes it will make the costs spiral.

It is the same mentality that was used to try and talk Brexit out of existence.



The point of HS2 (full length to the North) is that the new route provides a track that not only allows modern High Speed trains to go full speed today, but also has the capacity to allow the faster trains of the future as well. The old Victorian rail cuts simply do not have the specs to allow those kind of speeds and so they need building from fresh to start the process to begin again.



Its not the track or the sleepers the trains run on but the actual profile of the route itself, the angle and tilt of the curves and embankments etc. You cannot replicate these on old tracks as they simply are not built to allow modern trains and their potential speeds. Trying to adapt existing routes would be more expensive and destructive than building new.

[Baron von Lotsov]

My SIL spends well over £3000pa for his season ticket. I want trains and service like other countries. I want decent quick trains running on decent lines on time. I don't want everyone to wait 20 years and HS 2 being the end. They need to get all the rail services up to HS 2 standards and work 24/7 to do it and stop paying the bosses millions to do a bad job. Who do I call?

The Chinese build nuclear power stations in 18 months.



Compare to this:



Hinkley Point C - "In January 2008, the UK government gave the go-ahead for a new generation of nuclear power stations to be built."

"Date Construction Started 2018"

quotes from wiki.

They expect it to be completed in 2023, so that's 15 years compared to 18 months.



"In 2015, Theresa May's political adviser Nick Timothy wrote an article to oppose People's Republic of China's involvement in sensitive sectors such as the Hinkley Point C nuclear power project."



You can see why. The Chinese would expose the slackness of the bstards. "Why take so long? We build in 18 months"

[Barry]

As someone who has offspring 80 miles away and 160 miles away respectively, I want the best public transport available to all. Living in a conurbation access to trains and buses is great here, but it takes 3 hours for me to drive to Kent, whereas the train with connections and a bit of walking in London means it is 4 hours plus.

I'm not sure HS2 is the answer, as I've not studied it, but as JoG says, East West infrastructure is sadly deficient, and I can remember when the train ran from Wellingborough to Northampton. Apparently, Beeching's cuts are being considered for reversal. Andy Street is a strong supporter of infrastructure and modernisation projects, including a new tram line extension towards Brierley Hill and Stourbridge from Birmigham.

All these projects help to speed up travel.

I can foresee the time coming when I will either be unfit or unwilling to drive, so will rely mostly on public transport. Please keep improving it!

[johnofgwent]

Six years ago I was just wrapping up a freelance contract in Leeds.



While it was then (just about) possible to COMMUTE by rail from DONCASTER to LONDON and people WERE, including the guy who signed my invoices for the work at Leeds which had started at an office in York and migrated ...



While north south journeys were eminently doable, a trip from Wrexham to Hull or Blackpool to Grimsby, or even Manchester to York  or Sheffield, was barely possible by public transport and where it was, it took longer than it did the week before beechings axe fell in steam train branch lines...



I hear the words of the MPs including a lot of the new northern Tory constituency representatives trying to make the case for dumping HS2 and using the money on northern infrastructure and I understand them as only someone who needed to get from the British Aerospace site between Preston and Blackpool to the sister site at Brough but whose car had just blown it's injectors can. ........

[T00ts]

Dunno myself.



I am never in a rush to get anywhere so don't see the point in spending zillions to shave a couple of minutes off a train journey.



But Andy Street (Tory Mayor of West Midlands) and Andy Burnham (Labour Mayor of Greater Manchester ) both reckon that it is the dog's bollocks.



How about you guys?

My SIL spends well over £3000pa for his season ticket. I want trains and service like other countries. I want decent quick trains running on decent lines on time. I don't want everyone to wait 20 years and HS 2 being the end. They need to get all the rail services up to HS 2 standards and work 24/7 to do it and stop paying the bosses millions to do a bad job. Who do I call?

[Borchester]

Dunno myself.



I am never in a rush to get anywhere so don't see the point in spending zillions to shave a couple of minutes off a train journey.



But Andy Street (Tory Mayor of West Midlands) and Andy Burnham (Labour Mayor of Greater Manchester ) both reckon that it is the dog's bollocks.



How about you guys?