More Boris lockdown breaches

[Unlucky4Sum]

Oh right, so you know better than the EMA?  You say it's just a guess.  That's not how it works.  They don't just make a guess and then go public with it.  You are talking horseshit.  The "possibility" element simply means it happens to some people, but not others.  If they had no evidence that it happened to a single person, they would not publish it.

You're the one positioning a possibility as a supposed fact and then accuse others of talking 'horseshit'

You really don't do intelligent debate do you

[Scott777]

There is a theory that frequent vaccinations of any type might just possibly cause a degree of immune system fatigue.  It's not a fact, it's a guess.  That's all.

Oh right, so you know better than the EMA?  You say it's just a guess.  That's not how it works.  They don't just make a guess and then go public with it.  You are talking horseshit.  The "possibility" element simply means it happens to some people, but not others.  If they had no evidence that it happened to a single person, they would not publish it.

[Scott777]

There was and is much confusion over the various measures of deaths.

There is the aforementioned "within 28 days" measure - not great, but very quick to compile which is important for managing things in real time.

Then there are 2 further measures that involve death certificates and are slower but more accurate.

PV was talking about the "involved.covid deaths".

The ONS use "due to covid".deaths (but count both)

This is from the ONS on how they define "due to covid" for their statistics.
You can follow the link but the TLDR is that by the "due" definition (covid was either the only condition or was the.condition that started the fatal train of.events) 73k died.in 2020 and 67k.in.2021.
Interestingly those numbers line up reasonably well with the excess deaths over the historic baseline.prior.to 2020.

If.we.take the baseline to be around 530k
2020 saw 607k (+77k)
2021 saw 585k (+50k)

Vallance was talking about Covid on death certificates (from which ONS figures were taken), but they don't mean there was a Covid infection, therefore they could not have died from it.  You just ignored that fact.  Stop gaslighting.

[Unlucky4Sum]

Your numbers don't follow the figures in my graph, which only shows a 0.46% rise up to 2023!!

So you're still failing to give any credible rationale for your absurd 'only 35,000' figure

[Unlucky4Sum]

They can lower it, so you would be wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMW3aZFlfBM

I suggest you actually watch your video or just read the cover to it.
 
There is a theory that frequent vaccinations of any type might just possibly cause a degree of immune system fatigue.  It's not a fact, it's a guess.  That's all.
 
In fact if you'd been awake and alert these last 3 years you'd know that we carefully do not allow people to have closely spaced Covid vaccinations to avoid the risk.

[BeElBeeBub]

Your numbers don't follow the figures in my graph, which only shows a 0.46% rise up to 2023!!

I don't know the source of your graph so I can't interrogate it fully




There is no time scale but it says it's from 1950 to 2102 a 150 year time span, which is too coarse to really sany effect. Was it a typo? Did you mean to type 2021?



Anyway, I looked up the numbers from another source (statistica - not great but reasonable enough) and it showed a similar set of numbers to your graph (bumping around the 9's to 2019) then a jump into the 10's for 2020 and 2021. That accords with the raw data on deaths (a 12%ish jump above historic trend in 2020) and over that timescale population doesn't change, so I'd expect to see a similar magnitude bump in the per capita - which we appear to.

It is valid to point out that deaths per capita have been higher in the past.  But that doesnt mean the jump back up towards some of those rates is insignificant 
After all the per capita death rate reached 1 in 3 during the black death, but I don't see anyone arguing that anything less than that is insignificant! 🙂

[BeElBeeBub]

The advice came from the WHO, so why is a so hard to believe it was common practice around the world?  The BBC reported in July 2020 that official figures from Public Health England included in Covid deaths people who previously tested positive at any time.  And Patrick Vallance said Covid on a death certificate does not necessarily mean they were infected with Covid, which means they couldn't have died from it.  So your "conspiracy theory" is actually from the BBC and Vallance.

There was and is much confusion over the various measures of deaths.

There is the aforementioned "within 28 days" measure - not great, but very quick to compile which is important for managing things in real time.

Then there are 2 further measures that involve death certificates and are slower but more accurate.

PV was talking about the "involved.covid deaths".

The ONS use "due to covid".deaths (but count both)

This is from the ONS on how they define "due to covid" for their statistics.

...
The doctor or coroner certifying a death can record more than one health condition or event on the form. The medical certificate of cause of death has two parts, Part 1 contains the sequence of health conditions or events leading directly to death, while Part 2 can contain other health conditions that contributed to the death but were not part of the direct sequence. For statistical purposes one of the health conditions on the certificate is chosen as the 'underlying cause of death'. The underlying cause of death is defined as the health condition or event that started the train of events leading to death and is worked out according to rules from the World Health Organisation (WHO).  You can read in detail about the coding of causes of death and identifying the underlying cause in the ONS User guide to mortality statistics and the WHO International Classification of Diseases (ICD-10) instruction manual.

COVID-19 deaths by underlying cause and contributory cause are reported weekly in the Deaths Registered Weekly in England and Wales publication, which is updated every Tuesday.

When we say that a death 'involved' COVID-19, we mean that COVID-19 was mentioned anywhere on the death certificate, possibly along with other health conditions, not necessarily as the underlying cause of death. When we say that a death was 'due to' COVID-19, we mean that COVID-19 was the underlying cause of death, because it was either the only health condition mentioned on the death certificate, or it was the one that started the train of events leading to death. You can see how these different categories are used in the ONS Monthly mortality analysis.

You can follow the link but the TLDR is that by the "due" definition (covid was either the only condition or was the.condition that started the fatal train of.events) 73k died.in 2020 and 67k.in.2021.
Interestingly those numbers line up reasonably well with the excess deaths over the historic baseline.prior.to 2020.

If.we.take the baseline to be around 530k
2020 saw 607k (+77k)
2021 saw 585k (+50k)

[Scott777]

You seem to have a jumbled up recollection of the events of 2020 and 2021.  On this planet time only moves in one direction.  Once you've accepted that maybe you'll realise what a stupid post you just made.   

Oh well, since you can't explain anything you just just.  BS^^  😁

[Scott777]

Yes I am denying thqt vaccines lower the immune system.

They can lower it, so you would be wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMW3aZFlfBM

[Scott777]

That's not how rumours work. I don't have to disprove a crackpot rumour. You have to prove that doctors were systematically putting covid down as cause of death for deaths that weren't caused by COVID (eg bus)

Given the 100's of thousands of excess deaths that occured worldwide in 2020 and 2021, you've have to have an awful lot.of doctors, in an awful lot of countries, all merrily putting down covid on the death certificates of house fire victims, car crash victims, people who chokednon a grape over a.2 year period

.
And even then, after conjuring some international conspiracy involving thousands of doctors across the globe, you'd still have to explain what *did* cause those extra deaths.

The advice came from the WHO, so why is a so hard to believe it was common practice around the world?  The BBC reported in July 2020 that official figures from Public Health England included in Covid deaths people who previously tested positive at any time.  And Patrick Vallance said Covid on a death certificate does not necessarily mean they were infected with Covid, which means they couldn't have died from it.  So your "conspiracy theory" is actually from the BBC and Vallance.

[Nick]

Yes, population has increased so the absolute numbers are not directly comparable. But the spikes are

As your graph shows the trend of deaths per capita has been trending for decades.

Right up until 2020 when it went up.

2021 10
2020 10.3
2019  9.1
2018  9.3
2017  9.2
2016  9.1
2015  9.3
2014  8.8
2013  9
2012  8.9
2011  8.7
2010  8.9

Your numbers don't follow the figures in my graph, which only shows a 0.46% rise up to 2023!!

[patman post]

Look at U.K. deaths for the last 10 years and show me a spike during Covid.

Whether you accept the figures or not, I have the recent memory of my Mum, a senior nurse, co-opted onto ward duties during the height of the pandemic, absolutely exhausted and often in tears at what she was coping with. Patient numbers were definitely up.

She didn't care if the deaths she saw were to be classified as Covid or consumption, her job was to nurse, care and comfort (if she had time) the patients in her care. 

I/we have taken note of her experiences and ensured that we (Mrs and I and the kids) get all recommended vaccinations (for everything) as they come due.

Mum lectured the whole family and persuaded them of the sense of government advice. Some got Covid, as did I, but only one of our wider family was hospitalised.

So far, the only criticism I have of the government's handling of the pandemic was the initial delay in recognising the danger — it was a couple of months too late and I blame Boris Johnson for that. 

The current Covid enquiry needs to find out the facts and provide info to help the UK ready for any further such outbreaks...

[Unlucky4Sum]

Look at U.K. deaths for the last 10 years and show me a spike during Covid.

False argument

Lockdowns various cut deaths from a number of other causes because other infections weren't being past on, less car accidents occurred etc etc  

[Unlucky4Sum]

Oh right, your logic is he nearly died (oh yeah) and that's why he thought he was safe to have parties or whatever?  Wasn't he already supposed to be immune with the vaccine?  Wasn't that supposed to give more immunity than catching Covid?  🤣

You seem to have a jumbled up recollection of the events of 2020 and 2021.  On this planet time only moves in one direction.  Once you've accepted that maybe you'll realise what a stupid post you just made.    

[Unlucky4Sum]

There's nothing trivial about thousands of elderly people who were required to get tested for Covid (but not the flu) who maybe died because of flu, but tests that don't work said they had Covid.  If you keep testing people, with a test that is unreliable, eventually it will be positive.

BS ^

https://covidblog.oregon.gov/whats-true-and-false-about-covid-19-testing/