Cluster bombs

[BeElBeeBub]

Just lots of words, and nothing of substance.  You are conflating Europe with the EU.  They are not interchangeable.  People may risk their lives to cross the med, but it's NOT just to be in the EU, it's to reach a wealthier country, which is not Romania, so therefore it's not about the EU, so nothing you have said explains why anyone would risk their life for the EU.  Ukraine joining the EU does not mean they will end up any better off than Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Lithuania....  Get it?

They are risking their lives trying to get to wealthier countries (the ones that aren't fleeing something other than poverty) precisely because they aren't in the EU.

If you aren't an EU member, getting into those countries is hard. Even if you get into those countries, putting down roots and staying is hard.

In 2013 it was hard for ordinary Ukrainians to get visas in those wealthier European nations. Growing your business byntrading with wealthy European customers was hard. Getting investment from wealthy European investors was hard. You could go to Russia, trade with russian and get investment from wealthy Russians, but that wasn't as lucrative and a good deal more risky, especially when it came to those wealthy russian "investors".

The chance to become closer to the EU meant a chance to come closer to those wealthy European countries.  When that was dashed, people were pissed off.

And not only are the countries you mention better off than Ukriane was, they were better off than Russia was.  So yeah, Ukrainians were champing at the bit to be like the Lithuanians and Bulgarians.

[papasmurf]

It's in the maps section,.3rd.map.  "Net average monthly salary (adjusted for living costs in PPP)"

(Peeps.don't read the links!)

There no date on that. (Given the massive recent rises in the Cost of Living that is important.)

[BeElBeeBub]

Cheers, there is no cost of living comparison on that webpage.

It's in the maps section,.3rd.map.  "Net average monthly salary (adjusted for living costs in PPP)"

(Peeps.don't read the links!)

[Nick]

Nick, that is as usual no use at all. The link should have been posted with the graphic.

Correct, I suggest you start using your own advise. 

[papasmurf]

Usually, when I post a link, it doesn't get read so I generally don't bother and just quote the relevent bit.

But here you go....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
Fill yer boots!

Cheers, there is no cost of living comparison on that webpage.

[BeElBeeBub]

Nick, that is as usual no use at all. The link should have been posted with the graphic.

Usually, when I post a link, it doesn't get read so I generally don't bother and just quote the relevent bit. 

But here you go....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
Fill yer boots!

[papasmurf]

He posted a link weeks ago, if you can't be bothered to look, tough.

Nick, that is as usual no use at all. The link should have been posted with the graphic.

[Nick]

Have you a direct link to that please?

He posted a link weeks ago, if you can't be bothered to look, tough. 

[Scott777]

I think we are at cross purposes here (partly my fault for being unclear)


You said
to which i replied
the people (in bold) i was referring to are the migrants crossing the med from N.Africa (and other places) ending up in Greece, Italy, Southern France etc.  I was illustrating that the EU (or Europe) represents a very powerful pull towards a better life for many in the world.  Powerful enough they would risk their lives to get there, even without proper papers.  I wasn't referring to Ukrainians moving to Europe prior to the invasion.  Their route is to get a visa and get a flight directly to where they want to go.  An association agreement would have made it easier to do so and eventual membership would have made it trivial. It would have also opened up business opportunities by opening up the EU to their business and Ukraine to investment, similar to the process that happened to other ex-soviet states like Poland, Slovakia etc. 

So I find it believable that Ukrainians would be pissed off enough that their leaders had caved in to Russian blackmail and taken away their chance at closer ties to Europe to get out on the streets.

If the Ukrainians were so apathetic to Europe and enthusiastic about returning back to the Russian orbit, how do you explain the current fierce resistance?  Why weren't the Russian troops welcomed as liberators and brothers?

Just lots of words, and nothing of substance.  You are conflating Europe with the EU.  They are not interchangeable.  People may risk their lives to cross the med, but it's NOT just to be in the EU, it's to reach a wealthier country, which is not Romania, so therefore it's not about the EU, so nothing you have said explains why anyone would risk their life for the EU.  Ukraine joining the EU does not mean they will end up any better off than Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Lithuania....  Get it?

[papasmurf]

That map was the PPP (purchasing power parity) map so it does take the cost of living into account.

The raw gross salary version is even worse

Have you a direct link to that please?

[BeElBeeBub]

But not a cost of living comparison.

That map was the PPP (purchasing power parity) map so it does take the cost of living into account.

Wikipedia has a reasonable definition of PPP

"Purchasing power parity (PPP) is a measure of the price of specific goods in different countries and is used to compare the absolute purchasing power of the countries' currencies. PPP is effectively the ratio of the price of a basket of goods at one location divided by the price of the basket of goods at a different location. The PPP inflation and exchange rate may differ from the market exchange rate because of tariffs, and other transaction costs.


The purchasing power parity indicator can be used to compare economies regarding their gross domestic product (GDP), labour productivity and actual individual consumption, and in some cases to analyse price convergence and to compare the cost of living between places."

The raw gross salary version is even worse.  For example in gross terms Russia is about 1/5^th of the UK and Ukraine about 10/10^th, but in PPP terms Russia is about 2/3^rd the UK and Ukraine about 1/2

[papasmurf]

to follow on about the point of why the Ukrainians would be more interested in aligning with their western negibours than eastern ones.

Here's the average wages of various European countries in USD PP terms

But not a cost of living comparison.

[BeElBeeBub]

to follow on about the point of why the Ukrainians would be more interested in aligning with their western negibours than eastern ones.

Here's the average wages of various European countries in USD PP terms



they want to be more like Poland, Slovakia, Czech Rep etc and less like Russia and Belarus.

Tellingly, if you back out of moving closer to the EU, all they do is go "fine, we'll treat you just like we treat everyone else and you won't get any of the benefits of being a member"....and that's it.

If you try and move away from Russia, they bomb you.

[BeElBeeBub]

Right, so now you contradict yourself.  You said people are so desperate to be in the EU, they would risk their lives and start a revolution in Ukraine, BUT it's too hard to cross the med to get into an EU country, which is Romania.  Which one is it? Make your fricking mind up.

I think we are at cross purposes here (partly my fault for being unclear)


You said

.....Or did you honestly think ordinary citizens were so angry at not being part of the EU, they were prepared to die?  🤣.....

to which i replied

....And yes, I do believe ordinary Ukrainians were angry at having their future in the EU snatched away. People literally risk their lives crossing the med in a rubber dingy to get to the EU. Protesting against your president for abruptly U-turning and taking your chance away in exchange for a future in Russia? Totally believable...

the people (in bold) i was referring to are the migrants crossing the med from N.Africa (and other places) ending up in Greece, Italy, Southern France etc.  I was illustrating that the EU (or Europe) represents a very powerful pull towards a better life for many in the world.  Powerful enough they would risk their lives to get there, even without proper papers.  I wasn't referring to Ukrainians moving to Europe prior to the invasion.  Their route is to get a visa and get a flight directly to where they want to go.  An association agreement would have made it easier to do so and eventual membership would have made it trivial. It would have also opened up business opportunities by opening up the EU to their business and Ukraine to investment, similar to the process that happened to other ex-soviet states like Poland, Slovakia etc.  

So I find it believable that Ukrainians would be pissed off enough that their leaders had caved in to Russian blackmail and taken away their chance at closer ties to Europe to get out on the streets.

If the Ukrainians were so apathetic to Europe and enthusiastic about returning back to the Russian orbit, how do you explain the current fierce resistance?  Why weren't the Russian troops welcomed as liberators and brothers?

[Scott777]

Because it's pretty fucking hard to get to Romania by boat from North Africa.

Right, so now you contradict yourself.  You said people are so desperate to be in the EU, they would risk their lives and start a revolution in Ukraine, BUT it's too hard to cross the med to get into an EU country, which is Romania.  Which one is it? Make your fricking mind up.