Cluster bombs

[Nick]

Oh really?  The blowing up of NORD-2 by the CIA, the CIA assassination of JFK, torturing of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, the "suicide" of people like David Kelly after he inconveniently went against the official narrative on WMDs in Iraq, the "suicide" of Jeffrey Epstein while cameras conveniently malfunction, the imprisonment of Julian Assange based purely on a charge of missing court, while he is clearly a political prisoner.  And in Ukraine, a new law which has imprisoned a journalist just for disagreeing with the narrative.

All you are saying is Russia do it a bit differently to us.

US journalist Gonzalo Lira who faces a long prison term sentence in Ukraine for criticizing the country's government.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CWN8SmOX8U

NORD-2 : No proof. 
JFK:         No proof. 
Epstein:    No proof. 
Assange:  Put peoples lives at risk by releasing g names of secret agents. 

All conspiracy theories with no substance. 

[Scott777]

No they are not, neither the U.K. nor US inject their citizens in the neck with a powerful sedative to shut them up in a public meeting. I don't get followed by secret service agents in the U.K. like I do in Russia. It doesn't take me 4 hours to clear customs in the U.K. like it does in Russia. I don't have have my EMEI code taken from my phone in any other country other than Russia. It doesn't cost £50 to buy a £1 part in the U.K. like is does in Russia due to the 5 levels of corruption before I see the part. You have no idea because you have never been and are never likely to go. I've spent 4 months there in the last year and it's not fun I can tell you.

Oh really?  The blowing up of NORD-2 by the CIA, the CIA assassination of JFK, torturing of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, the "suicide" of people like David Kelly after he inconveniently went against the official narrative on WMDs in Iraq, the "suicide" of Jeffrey Epstein while cameras conveniently malfunction, the imprisonment of Julian Assange based purely on a charge of missing court, while he is clearly a political prisoner.  And in Ukraine, a new law which has imprisoned a journalist just for disagreeing with the narrative.

All you are saying is Russia do it a bit differently to us.

US journalist Gonzalo Lira who faces a long prison term sentence in Ukraine for criticizing the country's government.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CWN8SmOX8U

[Scott777]

Yes, he changed his mind after pressure from Russia, for example in August 2013 after a visit from Putin hadn't persuaded him Russia dramatically increased border checks on Ukrainian exports and even halted all of them for time.  That sort of thing was outlawed under the BM. So yeah, he changed his mind in the same way a wife looking to leave her husband changes her mind when he threatens to leave her penniless.

It's irrelevant.  This does not mean the US would not be involved in regime change.  Had it not occured to you, the US also puts people under pressure to do things?  Or that the US also breaks laws?  So, at first, Yanukovych was doing what the US wanted, then he did what Russia wanted, and the US didn't like it so they initiated a coup.

The funding and arming began in 2014 *after"* Russia's annexation (and the abject performance of the Ukrainian army).  The majority of the assistance was training, the UK provided 100 trainers - hardly a terrifying NATO presence.

Wrong.  Funding for the pro-EU agenda was provided by the National Endowment for Democracy, a US company.  Funding alone for a single pro-EU media company, Hromadske, was about 2 million hryvnias (about 40,000 quid) in 2013 and January - February 2014.  That money came from people like George Soros, the US Embassy, the Netherlands and Canada.  Media companies like Hromadske were a big influence on making info go viral to encourage pro-EU protesters.  So get your facts right, before making claims about funding for Ukraine which had an influence on the protests and subsequent revolution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hromadske

You are positing the whole thing is a plot to bring Ukraine closer into the western orbit,

Yes, especially via funding and media influence as stated, BEFORE the revolution.  Then the CIA were involved in the violence and removal of Yanukovych, as evidenced by the White House stating who they want in place.

When you think of the Salisbury poisonings, was it not Russia?

Russia and the Uk were involved.  I don't know, but Salisbury just happened to be the only place in the UK where a lab had it's own supply of Novichok, so you are ignorant if you think the UK was not involved in something fishy.

[Nick]

Hang on a second? What were you doing in Russia (if I may ask)?

I'm assuming not holiday, so work? I'd be intrigued to know what sort of work there is for NAZI sympathising lapdogs of the American Imperium in mother Russia.

😁

I was working, and if you care to follow Sanpan's line of questioning, circa Oct last year you will see all the proof. 

[BeElBeeBub]

No they are not, neither the U.K. nor US inject their citizens in the neck with a powerful sedative to shut them up in a public meeting. I don't get followed by secret service agents in the U.K. like I do in Russia. It doesn't take me 4 hours to clear customs in the U.K. like it does in Russia. I don't have have my EMEI code taken from my phone in any other country other than Russia. It doesn't cost £50 to buy a £1 part in the U.K. like is does in Russia due to the 5 levels of corruption before I see the part. You have no idea because you have never been and are never likely to go. I've spent 4 months there in the last year and it's not fun I can tell you.

Hang on a second? What were you doing in Russia (if I may ask)?

I'm assuming not holiday, so work? I'd be intrigued to know what sort of work there is for NAZI sympathising lapdogs of the American Imperium in mother Russia.

😁

[Nick]

Nick NO government can be trusted, when it comes to lies, propaganda and disinformation.  That you don't realise that by now explains a lot. (It became obvious to me over 60 years ago.)

We all know no government can be trusted, same as all MSM, that's not the point. You said the U.K. and US are on a par with Russia, which is absolute nonsense. And seeing as you get ALL of your information off MSM we can safely say your actually real life knowledge is zilch. Like when you said that Tesco shelves were empty near you, I posted pictures to prove you wrong, same with all the pubs being shut due to lack of staff, I posted pictures of pubs I was actually eating at. To summarise, the info you get from never leaving the house is a joke, and telling me the U.K. and US are on a par is an even bigger joke. 

[Nick]

But he's right, the UK and US are as bad.  The last 3 years have shown the level of propaganda that they will use against the people.  They used a nudge unit to carry out psychological warfare against people, to create fear, to coerce us into getting vaccinated and accepting vaccine passports.  The same propaganda applies to the climate emergency, and now politicians are not quite sure what a woman is.  If you can't see they are following an agenda using psychological manipulation, you haven't looked properly.

No they are not, neither the U.K. nor US inject their citizens in the neck with a powerful sedative to shut them up in a public meeting. I don't get followed by secret service agents in the U.K. like I do in Russia. It doesn't take me 4 hours to clear customs in the U.K. like it does in Russia. I don't have have my EMEI code taken from my phone in any other country other than Russia. It doesn't cost £50 to buy a £1 part in the U.K. like is does in Russia due to the 5 levels of corruption before I see the part. You have no idea because you have never been and are never likely to go. I've spent 4 months there in the last year and it's not fun I can tell you. 

[papasmurf]

Utter crap, you don't have a clue about how Russia operates. So I suggest you keep quiet instead of making yourself look a bigger fool.

Nick NO government can be trusted, when it comes to lies, propaganda and disinformation.  That you don't realise that by now explains a lot. (It became obvious to me over 60 years ago.)

[BeElBeeBub]

Is it so hard to imagine that Yanukovych was good for the West, and then they changed their mind, due to changing situation?  You ask lots of questions which don't show anything meaningful.

Yes, he changed his mind after pressure from Russia, for example in August 2013 after a visit from Putin hadn't persuaded him Russia dramatically increased border checks on Ukrainian exports and even halted all of them for time (link).  That sort of thing was outlawed under the BM. So yeah, he changed his mind in the same way a wife looking to leave her husband changes her mind when he threatens to leave her penniless.

Jeez, do you know nothing?  NATO and EU cannot do anything except fund and arm Ukraine.  They are not dragging their feet.  What the hell are you talking about?  The funding and arming began a long time ago.  It's called a proxy war.  You know what that is, don't you?  They don't want a direct war with Russia.  Which part don't you get?

The funding and arming began in 2014 *after"* Russia's annexation (and the abject performance of the Ukrainian army).  The majority of the assistance was training, the UK provided 100 trainers - hardly a terrifying NATO presence.

Equipment that was provided was fairly non lethal, NVGs, ambulances, counter mortar systems, comms etc.  There were some naval deals on joint development of ministers and fast missile patrol boats.

Lethal weapons only arrived towards the eve of the invasion.  Notably Trump used the provision (or not) of Javelin missiles as a lever to persuade Ukraine to investigate Biden.  Even then ATGMs aren't a major offensive weapon like artillery or tanks.

Ukraine faced Russia on the eve of invasion armed with Soviet weapons, Western trained troops (and officers) and some ATGMs

You are right NATO doesn't want a direct war with Russia, which is my point.  You are positing the whole thing is a plot to bring Ukraine closer into the western orbit, when NATO was never very keen to begin with.  The only thing that is pushing Ukraine towards NATO at the moment is Russia (as it has pushed Finland and Sweden into NATO).  

And even though NATO is holding back it's most modern weapons, Russia is still taking a beating.  The only things Russia's military has going for it is are vast Soviet era stockpiles (less vast now) and an insane level of casualty acceptance.

So you think, when the White House say who they want to replace Yanukovych, and he is replaced by exactly that person, you think that's Russia's disinformation?  Is that like when Biden says he will end the NORD-2 pipeline, and it is ended, that's Russia's disinformation?  And maybe you think the Iraq war being about control over oil, that's Russia's disinformation. Tell me, if aliens invade, will it just be Russians in green costumes?  And when you close your eyes, can you still see these Russians?  🤣  Are they laughing at you?  🤣

I think it highly unlikely the CIA would go to the trouble of forcing a leader to the negotiating table with the opposition and then insist he stays in power.

No I don't see Russia behind everything (though they were behind the "little green men" in Eastern Ukraine) but I don't believe their version of events uncritically like some useful idiots do. When you think of MH117, do you think it was a Russian missile that shot it down or one of the many counter stories they spat out? When you think of the Salisbury poisonings, was it not Russia?  When you think of the poisoning of Navalny, do you think it had nothing to do with Russia?

[Scott777]

Utter crap, you don't have a clue about how Russia operates. So I suggest you keep quiet instead of making yourself look a bigger fool.

But he's right, the UK and US are as bad.  The last 3 years have shown the level of propaganda that they will use against the people.  They used a nudge unit to carry out psychological warfare against people, to create fear, to coerce us into getting vaccinated and accepting vaccine passports.  The same propaganda applies to the climate emergency, and now politicians are not quite sure what a woman is.  If you can't see they are following an agenda using psychological manipulation, you haven't looked properly.

[Scott777]

If it was a CIA plot, why did the agreement signed by Yanukovych the day before he fled, that was brokered by Russian and European mediators and backed by the US, stipulate he remain as president?  If it was a coup attempt why was the only person removed the president and he ran away of his own accord? Why did the parliament remain in seasion until late 2014, nearly 9 months after the "CIA coup"?

Is it so hard to imagine that Yanukovych was good for the West, and then they changed their mind, due to changing situation?  You ask lots of questions which don't show anything meaningful.

If the protests were just CIA paid agitators and ordinary Ukrainians aren't that bothered, why have ordinary Ukrainians fought so hard against the invasion? Are they all CIA plants? That's alot of CIA spies.

Why wouldn't they fight against an invasion?  That's different from your parliament having difficulties with an agreement, due to EU rules.  WTF have they got to do with each other?

If it was all a plot to get Ukraine to join NATO and the EU, why are NATO and the EU dragging their feet?

Jeez, do you know nothing?  NATO and EU cannot do anything except fund and arm Ukraine.  They are not dragging their feet.  What the hell are you talking about?  The funding and arming began a long time ago.  It's called a proxy war.  You know what that is, don't you?  They don't want a direct war with Russia.  Which part don't you get?

As always, useful idiots and credulous fools abroad amplify Russia's disinformation. They probably believe.MH117 was actually shot down by a Ukrainan fighter jet trying to assassinate Putin or that the two Russian men in Sailsbury were.just visiting the world famous cathedral with its 123m spire....

So you think, when the White House say who they want to replace Yanukovych, and he is replaced by exactly that person, you think that's Russia's disinformation?  Is that like when Biden says he will end the NORD-2 pipeline, and it is ended, that's Russia's disinformation?  And maybe you think the Iraq war being about control over oil, that's Russia's disinformation. Tell me, if aliens invade, will it just be Russians in green costumes?  And when you close your eyes, can you still see these Russians?  🤣  Are they laughing at you?  🤣

[Nick]

Other governments including the USA and Britain are just as bad as Russia when it comes to disinformation.

Utter crap, you don't have a clue about how Russia operates. So I suggest you keep quiet instead of making yourself look a bigger fool. 

[papasmurf]

As always, useful idiots and credulous fools abroad amplify Russia's disinformation.

Other governments including the USA and Britain are just as bad as Russia when it comes to disinformation.

[BeElBeeBub]

It's a weak argument.  If they would risk their lives for the EU and get towards a wealthier country, why not just come to the easy-touch UK?

It makes more sense that the CIA was behind the revolution, to install a western puppet.  We have evidence, such as Nuland's comments.  You have no evidence it was just angry protesters.  So getting back to my point, it was the US that violated the agreement, and started civil war in Ukraine in 2014,  The war did not begin with Russian invasion.

You are talking utter bollocks.

The.idea the 2014 change of President (that's all that changed) was a CIA plot is a fantasy for simpletons.

If it was a CIA plot, why did the agreement signed by Yanukovych the day before he fled, that was brokered by Russian and European mediators and backed by the US, stipulate he remain as president?  If it was a coup attempt why was the only person removed the president and he ran away of his own accord? Why did the parliament remain in seasion until late 2014, nearly 9 months after the "CIA coup"?

If the protests were just CIA paid agitators and ordinary Ukrainians aren't that bothered, why have ordinary Ukrainians fought so hard against the invasion? Are they all CIA plants? That's alot of CIA spies.

If it was all a plot to get Ukraine to join NATO and the EU, why are NATO and the EU dragging their feet?

Russia has held "referendums" asking to join the Russian federarion and then admitted them already. Why hasn't NATO and the EU admitted Ukraine? it's not like the Ukrains haven't asked.

There was no coup, the president abandoned his post, sonthey elected a new one. No different from if he had had a stroke. The parliament remained. The government remained. Elections were held.

Meanwhile after violating the Budapest Memorandum bynaplyijg economic coercion to Ukraine, Russia then straight invaded Eastern Ukraine and Crimea. Again in violation of the BM.

As always, useful idiots and credulous fools abroad amplify Russia's disinformation. They probably believe.MH117 was actually shot down by a Ukrainan fighter jet trying to assassinate Putin or that the two Russian men in Sailsbury were.just visiting the world famous cathedral with its 123m spire....

[Scott777]

They are risking their lives trying to get to wealthier countries (the ones that aren't fleeing something other than poverty) precisely because they aren't in the EU.

If you aren't an EU member, getting into those countries is hard. Even if you get into those countries, putting down roots and staying is hard.

In 2013 it was hard for ordinary Ukrainians to get visas in those wealthier European nations. Growing your business byntrading with wealthy European customers was hard. Getting investment from wealthy European investors was hard. You could go to Russia, trade with russian and get investment from wealthy Russians, but that wasn't as lucrative and a good deal more risky, especially when it came to those wealthy russian "investors".

The chance to become closer to the EU meant a chance to come closer to those wealthy European countries.  When that was dashed, people were pissed off.

And not only are the countries you mention better off than Ukriane was, they were better off than Russia was.  So yeah, Ukrainians were champing at the bit to be like the Lithuanians and Bulgarians.

It's a weak argument.  If they would risk their lives for the EU and get towards a wealthier country, why not just come to the easy-touch UK?

It makes more sense that the CIA was behind the revolution, to install a western puppet.  We have evidence, such as Nuland's comments.  You have no evidence it was just angry protesters.  So getting back to my point, it was the US that violated the agreement, and started civil war in Ukraine in 2014,  The war did not begin with Russian invasion.