Ministers skip UN meeting on disability rights,

[BeElBeeBub]

Benefit fraud is currently running a 4%, which is billions, but if that's ok with you then so be it. It ain't ok with me.

£7.6 billion to be precise.

Again, somewhat fast and loose with the facts.

Overpayment *across all benefits* was 3.6% (£8.3bn) but that also includes payments legitimately made in error (either by claimant or government).

Overpayments *across all benefits* due to Fraud were 2.7% (£6.4bn) in FYE 2023

I'll repeat again, the instances of fraud in disability benefits (now called PIP) was 0.2% of the total disability bill.

Remember you were referring specifically to disability benefits not general benefits) 

Just because some of your acquaintances are fraudsters doesn't mean everyone claiming PIP is a fraudster.

Whilst all fraud is deplorable the fact that the government is underpaying more than the scammers are defrauding shows how little of an issue it is.

One of the failings of the British national character is the willingness to see worthy cases deprived rather than countenance a single unworthy case getting something they aren't entitled too.

[papasmurf]

I personally knew 2 people who claimed Disablility for over 20 years, and openly spoke about them taking the piss. It's those I'm concerned about, not genius cases.

Not interested Nick because it is effing nonsense and I am calling you out for lying. (Seriously.) I do NOT accept anecdotes. In the last 20 years they would have been reassessed and checked several times, and would have had to to provide evidence.
You may THINK they are frauds, but most people who think they know a benefit fraud are wrong or malicious. (It used to be over 97%, that has dropped to around 90%.)
Old link:- More than 85% of benefit fraud tip-offs are false, DWP reveals (benefitfraudsolicitors.co.uk)

11 NOV 2016

The government has revealed that, over the last five years, only 153,751 of the 1.6m public tip-offs it has received relating to benefit fraud were genuine and required further action to be taken. The rest, it said, failed to display any signs of fraud.

The news came about as the Department for Work and Pensions responded to a freedom of information request regarding allegations of benefit fraud, in particular those made by members of the public between 2010 and 2015. In 2015 alone, the DWP's Fraud and Error Service investigated 153,083 cases, with no further action recommended in 132,772.
The government's policy of encouraging members of the public to report those they suspect of dishonestly claiming benefits has been seen as controversial by some politicians and members of the public alike. Tim Farron, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, stated, "the alarming number of incorrect reports shows the system has failed, it should be the DWP which investigates benefit fraud, not your closest neighbours. This McCarthy-style reporting of benefit fraud is another example of the government's desire to turn people against the welfare state and to treat sick and disabled people as second-class citizens."
The sheer volume of inaccurate accusations weighing down investigations of the DWP puts into question the government's recent media and advertising offensive claiming that the public have a role and a duty to identify and report "benefit cheats". The government's own figures put the level of fraudulent benefits at 0.7% of the total budget spent on benefits (£1.2bn) in 2012/13. In the same year, however, by the government's own estimation, £1.6m was underpaid by the DWP to benefit claimants who were entitled to received it.



Stats on unclaimed benefits:-
Report on Accounts - Department for Work & Pensions (nao.org.uk)


Underpayments
9 The estimated amount of benefits underpaid by DWP increased to 1.4%
(£3.3 billion) in 2022-23, the highest level on record. This compares with 1.2%
(£2.6 billion) in 2021-22. The increase in underpayments in 2022-23 was mostly
due to claimant error in Personal Independence Payment (PIP). DWP also reports
a number of historical underpayment issues in State Pension going back several
decades. DWP's controls should detect large-scale underpayments in any year,
but because it is reliant on detecting them through sampling, unknown problems
can continue for many years. This means the build-up of underpayments and the
need for correction exercises are likely to remain features of the benefit system
for the foreseeable future (paragraphs 3.1, 3.24 and 3.25)

[Nick]

what would you do with people who are disabled?

How are they supposed to live, move about, keep warm?

You should note that the bill for PIP benefits is less than 1/5 the state pension.  Those pensioners drive cars paid for by taxes, they live in houses paid for by taxes and they get given money from taxes.

A good friend of mine has multiple complex health conditions.  They are extremely bright but their health means that on any given day they may or may not be able to get out of bed.  Even when they do they walk with a stick (at best) or use a wheel chair.  The condition leads to concentration and fatigue issues due to blood flow to the brain and they have to wear nappies. How do you propose they get a job? Maybe they could do Uber eats?

I personally knew 2 people who claimed Disablility for over 20 years, and openly spoke about them taking the piss. It's those I'm concerned about, not genius cases. 

[Nick]

*** Post unapproved Smurf, we are not playing whataboutery cause you can't disprove other facts. ***

[Nick]

why don't you prove your assertion?

Here is some evidence that your statement was wrong.

The government's latest figures show the rate of fraud for Personal Independence Payments is around 0.2%. 

That's about £40m overpaid due to fraud out of a budget of £18bn. It's actually smaller than the amount of underpayments due to government errors (0.3% or £60m).

Given there are around 600 convictions for benfit fraud (of all types) a year it is likely the number of PIP fraudsters is well below 100 a year.

That is a minuscule minority and could in no way be considered "many" 

As a side note this FOI from a few years ago showed that 90% of accusations of disability fraud were eventually found to be false (i.e. no fraud).

Benefit fraud is currently running a 4%, which is billions, but if that's ok with you then so be it. It ain't ok with me.

£7.6 billion to be precise. 

[Borchester]

what would you do with people who are disabled?


You should note that the bill for PIP benefits is less than 1/5 the state pension.  Those pensioners drive cars paid for by taxes, they live in houses paid for by taxes and they get given money from taxes.

Well, speaking as a cripple, I think the solution is obvious. If the PIPs is only 1/5th of the pension, the sensible thing to do is cut the benefits to rich pensioners such as Pappy (who seem to have plenty of money for foreign holidays and flash motor bikes) and give the money to me, who is routing around for the price of a puncture repair kit so as to fix the left hand side rear wheel on my mobility scooter

[papasmurf]

what would you do with people who are disabled?

How are they supposed to live, move about, keep warm?

You should note that the bill for PIP benefits is less than 1/5 the state pension.  Those pensioners drive cars paid for by taxes, they live in houses paid for by taxes and they get given money from taxes.

A good friend of mine has multiple complex health conditions.  They are extremely bright but their health means that on any given day they may or may not be able to get out of bed.  Even when they do they walk with a stick (at best) or use a wheel chair.  The condition leads to concentration and fatigue issues due to blood flow to the brain and they have to wear nappies. How do you propose they get a job? Maybe they could do Uber eats?

Nick would prefer that they die. (60% of Covid 19 deaths were disabled people.) The number of people on internet forums who would volunteer for a latter day British version of the Einsatzgruppen. The tories have started yet another attack on disabled people:-

Watchdog receives hundreds of complaints over Telegraph's 'toxic' benefits article – Disability News Service


Watchdog receives hundreds of complaints over Telegraph's 'toxic' benefits article
By John Pring on 8th June 2023Category: Activism and Campaigning

A press watchdog has received hundreds of complaints about a "toxic" article by the Daily Telegraph which asked its readers to calculate how much disabled people on out-of-work benefits were contributing to the country's "tax burden".
The Telegraph wrote that millions were claiming benefits "without ever having to look for work" and it produced an automatic calculator that allowed readers to discover "just how much of our hard-won salaries are spent on the benefits of those who do not work".
More than 600 people have so far complained about the article to the Independent Press Standards Organisation (IPSO), which is currently assessing the complaints.
Disabled campaigners warned this week that the news story, following a "hateful" Twitter post by Channel 5's Jeremy Vine show last month, marks a return to "divisive" and "damaging" media coverage that incites hatred of disabled people.
Dr Jay Watts, a disabled activist and consultant clinical psychologist, drafted a letter to the Telegraph that has been signed by nearly 300 mental health professionals and describes the "distress" the "divisive" story has caused.
The letter says it is "troubling to observe the return of a divisive narrative last seen at the height of austerity politics, which is likely to lead to an increase in hate crimes and have a profound impact on psychological well-being and societal cohesion".
It says: "The insinuation that benefit claimants are 'lazy' or 'undeserving', reminiscent of tropes seen in TV shows like 'Benefits Street', oversimplifies and misrepresents the realities of their lives.
"The level of shaming in the public sphere is now so bad that we as clinicians sometimes have to beg people in desperate need to apply for benefits so fearful are they of being seen as a burden."
In a statement, Disability Rights UK (DR UK) – one of the organisations to complain to IPSO – said there had been "an increase in incitement of hatred against disabled people from some sections of our media", including the Telegraph.
It said the aim of the article was "to vilify people who are too sick to work by angering those who are paying taxes that go towards disability benefits", and it warned: "We must resist these toxic narratives that only lead to further abuse and vilification of disabled people."
Kamran Mallick, DR UK's chief executive, said: "Disability hate speech is totally abhorrent and must stop.
"We urge the Telegraph to cease their campaign against disabled people unable to work."
The National Union of Journalists' disabled members' council also issued a statement, although it did not mention the Telegraph directly.
Natasha Hirst, a disabled journalist and recently elected president of the union, said: "Recent negative reporting on out of work sickness benefits has reinforced a damaging narrative that blames and punishes disabled people for situations that are not of their making.
"Disabled people are rightfully angry to be the target of inhumane and degrading rhetoric in print and broadcast media.
"Journalism is a crucial tool to scrutinise and hold those in power to account and there is no place for toxic reporting that undermines and further marginalises a significant proportion of the population."
Asked if the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) shared the concerns of those who complained to IPSO that the Telegraph coverage was reinforcing a damaging narrative that blamed disabled people for situations that were not of their making and targeted them with "inhumane and degrading rhetoric", a DWP spokesperson declined to comment.
Meanwhile, the same "Jeremy Vine on 5" Twitter account that asked last month if it was time to "crack down" on sick and disabled people on out-of-work benefits, has now asked if the increasing number of young adults who are not in work because of illness means they should be described as the "'sick-note' generation".
The post again caused widespread anger among disabled people on social media, with activists describing it as "appalling", "anti disabled" and an "attack on disabled people".
It is 12 years since disabled activists demonstrated outside the central London offices of the Daily Mail to protest about that newspaper's "disablist" and "defamatory" coverage of the government's push to force people off incapacity benefits.
Lord Justice Leveson's report into press standards later highlighted the "significant tendency" among newspapers to publish "prejudicial or pejorative" references to disabled people and other minorities.
Leveson included three examples of "misleading articles" on incapacity benefit reform, which he said were examples of the "harmful" practice in parts of the media of "prioritising the worldview of a title over the accuracy of a story".
One of them was a Daily Telegraph news story.
Activists now believe the government is again using the media to scapegoat disabled people for the UK's economic problems, and to try to distract the public from its own difficulties.
It comes only weeks after the minister for disabled people, Tom Pursglove, faced calls to resign after uploading a hostile and "dangerous" post about benefit fraud on social media that warned claimants his department would "track you down" and "bring you to justice".
Following the spate of distressing media "messaging" about benefit claimants, the grassroots, user-led mental health group Recovery in the Bin (RiTB) put out a call for testimony of what life is like for DWP claimants.
Some of that testimony was published this week.
One claimant told RiTB: "I know that I only deserve to live if I'm employed, that's the message."
Another comment described how the impact of "DWP processes and their media has had a direct impact on my mental health to the degree that I would rate it worse than my illness, worse than being sectioned and forcibly medicated, worse than being stitched with no local anaesthetic, worse than surviving a suicide attempt".
Several of those who contacted RiTB spoke of how they felt like a "burden" and "undeserving", with one describing the disability benefits system as "a special kind of hell on earth designed to make us feel subhuman, which is what most people think we are".
One claimant said that watching the Pursglove video had caused a "psychotic episode" and led to a police welfare check.
And one of those who responded to RiTB wrote: "I've attempted suicide, been paranoid and psychotic and detained under the [Mental Health Act].
"I think that there is more threat to my life from the benefits system than anything else."
One claimant told RiTB: "Am not on benefits anymore but I can still feel that fear.
"The recent video from the DWP brought it all back. The feeling of being watched, never knowing who or when. Being told by a support worker that I was worrying over nothing.
"Feeling like a fraud and doubting myself all the time. It was exhausting."
DNS asked the Telegraph if it would correct at least one obvious inaccuracy in its article, whether it regretted its coverage, and if it would apologise in print and take action to ensure that further such articles are not published.
The Telegraph declined to answer those questions, but a spokesperson said that "more than 600 complaints have been referred to IPSO, we will await to hear from the regulator regarding the matter".

[BeElBeeBub]

They live in a house paid for with taxes, They drive a car paid for with taxes, and get given money from taxes. You're talking bollocks as usual and I expect nothing less seeing as you and all your cronies are at it.

what would you do with people who are disabled?

How are they supposed to live, move about, keep warm?

You should note that the bill for PIP benefits is less than 1/5 the state pension.  Those pensioners drive cars paid for by taxes, they live in houses paid for by taxes and they get given money from taxes.

A good friend of mine has multiple complex health conditions.  They are extremely bright but their health means that on any given day they may or may not be able to get out of bed.  Even when they do they walk with a stick (at best) or use a wheel chair.  The condition leads to concentration and fatigue issues due to blood flow to the brain and they have to wear nappies. How do you propose they get a job? Maybe they could do Uber eats? 

[BeElBeeBub]

You prove to me it's lies.

why don't you prove your assertion?

Here is some evidence that your statement was wrong.

The government's latest figures show the rate of fraud for Personal Independence Payments is around 0.2%. 

That's about £40m overpaid due to fraud out of a budget of £18bn. It's actually smaller than the amount of underpayments due to government errors (0.3% or £60m).

Given there are around 600 convictions for benfit fraud (of all types) a year it is likely the number of PIP fraudsters is well below 100 a year.

That is a minuscule minority and could in no way be considered "many"  

As a side note this FOI from a few years ago showed that 90% of accusations of disability fraud were eventually found to be false (i.e. no fraud).

[Nick]

You provide researched referenced evidence to back up the lies and propaganda you wrote. (Seriously.)  This is total nonsense :- " you can get a brand new car every 3 years, a house and free cash?"

Details of the Motability scheme. NO-ONE get a free car. They have to qualify for the benefit to lease one with any disability modifications needed. (They NEVER own it.) It also enables many disabled people to work. Take the car away and they can't work.

Am I eligible to join the Scheme? | Motability Scheme

Get a house FFS Nick that is a blatant lie, which you cannot back up.
What "free cash." Disability benefits are far below being adequate.

To qualify for ANY disability benefits requires medical reports and examinations, (Not by the persons GP.)

Frankly Nick you do not have a bloody clue.

They live in a house paid for with taxes, They drive a car paid for with taxes, and get given money from taxes. You're talking bollocks as usual and I expect nothing less seeing as you and all your cronies are at it.

[papasmurf]

You prove to me it's lies.

You provide researched referenced evidence to back up the lies and propaganda you wrote. (Seriously.)  This is total nonsense :- " you can get a brand new car every 3 years, a house and free cash?" 

Details of the Motability scheme. NO-ONE get a free car. They have to qualify for the benefit to lease one with any disability modifications needed. (They NEVER own it.) It also enables many disabled people to work. Take the car away and they can't work.

Am I eligible to join the Scheme? | Motability Scheme

Get a house FFS Nick that is a blatant lie, which you cannot back up.
What "free cash." Disability benefits are far below being adequate.

To qualify for ANY disability benefits requires medical reports and examinations, (Not by the persons GP.)

Frankly Nick you do not have a bloody clue.

[Nick]

Nick that is trolling and not only that yet again your total ignorance about subject is shocking. You really ought to be ashamed of yourself spouting lies and propaganda like that. It is offensive.

You prove to me it's lies. 

[papasmurf]

Of which there are many, why work when you can get a brand new car every 3 years, a house and free cash?

Nick that is trolling and not only that yet again your total ignorance about subject is shocking. You really ought to be ashamed of yourself spouting lies and propaganda like that. It is offensive.

[Nick]

I believe this is all about welfare reforms and trying to get disabled people back into the workplace .  Most genuine disabled people , those who want to contribute to society welcome these measures .

Of course the ones swinging the lead are not so keen on the reforms .......tough .

Of which there are many, why work when you can get a brand new car every 3 years, a house and free cash?

[papasmurf]

I believe this is all about welfare reforms and trying to get disabled people back into the workplace .  Most genuine disabled people , those who want to contribute to society welcome these measures .

Of course the ones swinging the lead are not so keen on the reforms .......tough .

You really are ignorant of the situation, (not your fault, you have been bombarded with lies and disablist propaganda for a long time.) Your comment about "the one's swinging the lead." proves that comprehensively.
The number of deaths and suicides as direct result of the government's, the DWP and DWP contractors hostile environment towards disabled people is a national scandal. The UN wishes to challenge the government about it.
Frankly I would like top see every DWP minister since May 2010 in jail, and the management and "doctors," who carry out the fatally flawed "medicals."
Just a sample:-
Secret reviews into DWP deaths have more than doubled in three years | Disability Rights UK