Impending machete ban.

[BeElBeeBub]

Or on the other hand we could use existing legislation "carrying an offensive weapon" and impose lengthy sentences as a deterrent instead of as I've already stated showcase legislation designed as a "look at us we're doing something" when it's clear they're not and won't.
The present administration has been threatened they've emptied jails to accommodate rioters etc. I've no problem with people involved in violent disorder being imprisoned but the law has been shown to be wanting in other areas of lawlessness for many years and nothing done.

The existing law was sufficient" for stopping people carrying the zombie knives (or almost any knife or weapon) about in public. 

There already were mandatory sentences for possession (second offence mandatory 6 months) or threatening (6 months minimum) going up to 4 years.

However, the knives themselves were not illegal to sell or own and the police were powerless to stop someone selling knives (unless they sold to under 18). The police couldn't even stop someone having a large collection of such knives at home - they would have to catch the person carrying it in public. 

Imagine if shotguns were freely availble to buy for any adult and it was only an offense to carry one in public without a good reason. We'd see a lot more shotguns being used by gangs. 

*in the sense that it gives the police the power to do something - I make no comment on the effectiveness of the policing. 

This update to the law is about stopping the sale of such knives. 

[Unlucky4Sum]

Or on the other hand we could use existing legislation "carrying an offensive weapon" and impose lengthy sentences as a deterrent instead of as I've already stated showcase legislation designed as a "look at us we're doing something" when it's clear they're not and won't.
The present administration has been threatened they've emptied jails to accommodate rioters etc. I've no problem with people involved in violent disorder being imprisoned but the law has been shown to be wanting in other areas of lawlessness for many years and nothing done.

But that existing legislation left much to judgement and such could be questioned in court leading to cases being dropped, scarce court time being wasted etc.

No situation is ever perfect but what we have now is less imperfect than it was.  Why do you object to that? 

[cromwell]

Probably more.

But it is a tool. It has a legitimate purpose. Banning it would pose a lot of problems.

The types of knives they are trying to ban are not used by any (legitimate) trade. Their sole purpose is to look as intimidating as possible.



Unsurprisingly they are used for intimidating people on the streets.

With legislation of this type there is always a balance between removing the harm and removing a useful thing.

We could ban every single thing that could be used to stab a person, but then how would we cut out food? Use sccisors, undo screws, knit etc.

On the other hand a thing that's primary purpose is intimidating and injuring people could be banned with minimal effect on anyone not trying to intimate and injure people.

Or on the other hand we could use existing legislation "carrying an offensive weapon" and impose lengthy sentences as a deterrent instead of as I've already stated showcase legislation designed as a "look at us we're doing something" when it's clear they're not and won't.
The present administration has been threatened they've emptied jails to accommodate rioters etc. I've no problem with people involved in violent disorder being imprisoned but the law has been shown to be wanting in other areas of lawlessness for many years and nothing done.

[BeElBeeBub]

But can do as much damage

Probably more.

But it is a tool. It has a legitimate purpose. Banning it would pose a lot of problems.

The types of knives they are trying to ban are not used by any (legitimate) trade. Their sole purpose is to look as intimidating as possible. 



Unsurprisingly they are used for intimidating people on the streets. 

With legislation of this type there is always a balance between removing the harm and removing a useful thing. 

We could ban every single thing that could be used to stab a person, but then how would we cut out food? Use sccisors, undo screws, knit etc. 

On the other hand a thing that's primary purpose is intimidating and injuring people could be banned with minimal effect on anyone not trying to intimate and injure people.

[cromwell]

No because it doesn't meet the old or new definition of a zombie knife.

But can do as much damage

[BeElBeeBub]

Ho ho ho very funny,and will they now ban these?

https://www.butchersequipment.co.uk/icel-10-schmitar-steak-knife-granton-edge-25cm-black?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADsphzbthDQjvT7PnaWPzLQwrwqxZ&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrKu2BhDkARIsAD7GBou-7R1PLgvKZXIBk0nIZzsQkXr5Ly5-lhwa7C_kXNHZILmxcP50ncwaAvrNEALw_wcB

No because it doesn't meet the old or new definition of a zombie knife. 

[cromwell]

Existing legislation allowed zombie knives to be sold and possessed. There was nothing the police could do about someone having them at home.

That will not be the case in future.

All that said, I do think I have found a flaw in the new defintion.....

8" long, two serrated edges and two points/spikes.



The classic bread knife.

Ironically whilst the kitchen devil knife could be a fairly nasty slashing weapon against bare or lightly protected skin, it's probably a bad stabbing weapon* being too flexible and the twin points actually act as blunt tip once the short points have sunk in

*unless you're a slice of bread 😁

Ho ho ho very funny,and will they now ban these?

https://www.butchersequipment.co.uk/icel-10-schmitar-steak-knife-granton-edge-25cm-black?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADsphzbthDQjvT7PnaWPzLQwrwqxZ&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrKu2BhDkARIsAD7GBou-7R1PLgvKZXIBk0nIZzsQkXr5Ly5-lhwa7C_kXNHZILmxcP50ncwaAvrNEALw_wcB

[BeElBeeBub]

As you say we differ and I maintain all that could be achieved with existing legislation.

Existing legislation allowed zombie knives to be sold and possessed. There was nothing the police could do about someone having them at home.

That will not be the case in future. 

All that said, I do think I have found a flaw in the new defintion..... 

8" long, two serrated edges and two points/spikes. 



The classic bread knife. 

Ironically whilst the kitchen devil knife could be a fairly nasty slashing weapon against bare or lightly protected skin, it's probably a bad stabbing weapon* being too flexible and the twin points actually act as blunt tip once the short points have sunk in

*unless you're a slice of bread 😁

[cromwell]

Yes it is very similar.  But the public were asking for it and the politicians responded.  So it's wrong to say or imply this was something the politicians imposed on an unwilling public.

In this case IMHO the public were and are right, we need as far as is reasonably practicable to have lethal weapons taken off our streets and those that would carry, supply or use them banged up. 

As you say we differ and I maintain all that could be achieved with existing legislation.

[Unlucky4Sum]

That's like saying the public are behind lower energy bills,of course they are and where are we?

Yes it is very similar.  But the public were asking for it and the politicians responded.  So it's wrong to say or imply this was something the politicians imposed on an unwilling public.

In this case IMHO the public were and are right, we need as far as is reasonably practicable to have lethal weapons taken off our streets and those that would carry, supply or use them banged up.   

[cromwell]

But the public has been well behind taking further action on knife crime  https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_KnifeCrime_230502_W.pdf

That's like saying the public are behind lower energy bills,of course they are and where are we?

[Unlucky4Sum]

Well it's ok to differ that's what it's all about.

The problems this country has had for decades now and it's getting worse is that whoever is in power appears oblivious to what people are thinking and even if they are aware but just thinking they know better then ignoring the plebs is a dangerous road to take.

But the public has been well behind taking further action on knife crime  https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_KnifeCrime_230502_W.pdf

[cromwell]

We'll have to differ on this.  Will there be further loopholes?  Yes, no law is ever perfect.  But IMHO this law closes a massive loophole and will leave anyone carrying one of these evil knives with no sensible option but to plead guilty to get the reduced sentence.

Again IMHO i see no evidence this was some police state oppression that some are postulating.

The OP with its claims of stopping all sorts of legal behaviour was a pile of nonsense

Well it's ok to differ that's what it's all about.

The problems this country has had for decades now and it's getting worse is that whoever is in power appears oblivious to what people are thinking and even if they are aware but just thinking they know better then ignoring the plebs is a dangerous road to take.

[Unlucky4Sum]

The whole point of this is it is an imagined solution,bans on the purchase of zombie knives will do nothing because they will find alternatives.

Illegal firearms are banned yet they are still imported or manufactured in secret.

The only way to lessen their use is to jail people for a long time and make an example of them and thats not going to happen with jails full.

This ban is gesture politics.

We'll have to differ on this.  Will there be further loopholes?  Yes, no law is ever perfect.  But IMHO this law closes a massive loophole and will leave anyone carrying one of these evil knives with no sensible option but to plead guilty to get the reduced sentence.

Again IMHO i see no evidence this was some police state oppression that some are postulating.

The OP with its claims of stopping all sorts of legal behaviour was a pile of nonsense

[cromwell]

Well I could challenge you to deliver a time machine.  Setting impossible challenges is not debate.

There would be no case to find a link for if the police or CPS decided not to proceed with taking it to court would there.

The whole point of this is it is an imagined solution,bans on the purchase of zombie knives will do nothing because they will find alternatives.

Illegal firearms are banned yet they are still imported or manufactured in secret.

The only way to lessen their use is to jail people for a long time and make an example of them and thats not going to happen with jails full.

This ban is gesture politics.