Can anyone..

[Borg Refinery]

Is there any religion that has no belief in an afterlife/paradise?  I think the only real difference is the entry ticket price.

There are a lot of differences, but I get your point.

[T00ts]

Incentive?



Heaven. Eternal life.



Isn't that like, our only incentive for doing anything as Christians?



Not exerting effort is slothfulness, a deadly sin, something we're all too familiar with during lockdown maybe, I know I am.  :-?

Is there any religion that has no belief in an afterlife/paradise?  I think the only real difference is the entry ticket price.

[Borg Refinery]

In the absence of any stimulating politics I have followed this discussion with some interest. I can't help feeling that something is missing. Incentive. Why would anyone or society wish to behave in any way unless something would be gained from the effort?

Incentive?



Heaven. Eternal life.



Isn't that like, our only incentive for doing anything as Christians?



Not exerting effort is slothfulness, a deadly sin, something we're all too familiar with during lockdown maybe, I know I am.  :-?

[T00ts]

In the absence of any stimulating politics I have followed this discussion with some interest. I can't help feeling that something is missing. Incentive. Why would anyone or society wish to behave in any way unless something would be gained from the effort?

[Borg Refinery]

Can you please provide some information about the monks you are talking about.

Welp, my observation of a monastery?



Really, really hard work & prayer ftom 5am (or earlier if dawn is earlier) until 9pm.



And they're very accommodating, like they accommodated a Russian couple who travelled there when they were meant to be shut to guests. That means they went out their way to provide bedding, food, anything else they wanted.



They 'embody' the good values of the Religion in my experience.



They let some proudly Atheist homeless ex squaddie stay, despite generally only letting other Orthodox stay, gave him money and food, and a bus ticket when he left.



They do rebuke people if they're going to confession, or they take liberties, but they're not at desert ascetic-level so that's to be expected.



I don't have direct experience with deeply ascetic monks. Very few people do.



I -may- have come across one, and he was almost completely silent except for offering advice when asked.

[Nalaar]

Can you please provide some information about the monks you are talking about.

[Borg Refinery]

Silent retreats are made possible by the labour of others. Whole short term retreats of a few months or years can be at the participants expense, a lifetime to live as the OP suggests requires a monumental ego and/or a religious cult following. I don't think either are desirable.

How does being humble and selfless and isolative require a monumental ego?



Have you ever even come across any Orthodox monks? I think you have a fairly prejudiced view.



They believe in full self-sufficiency. They do not rely on anyone else's labour at all,infact it's against their principles.



I only wish I could be 0.1% of what they are, but I am very much a bumbling hypocrite. =-)

In what sense? How can you rebuke someone without quarrelling?

Hints can be dropped, truthful observations made etc.

[Nalaar]

Many great philosophers, and those in many other religions found isolation useful.



Your personal dislike of it is your own thing.

Silent retreats are made possible by the labour of others. Whole short term retreats of a few months or years can be at the participants expense, a lifetime to live as the OP suggests requires a monumental ego and/or a religious cult following. I don't think either are desirable.

In a sense, yes.

In what sense? How can you rebuke someone without quarrelling?

[Borg Refinery]

Right, so in order to live this way all you have to do is sacrifice relationships with other people, and indeed the concept of society altogether. And you wonder why I think it's undesirable?

Many great philosophers, and those in many other religions found isolation useful.



Your personal dislike of it is your own thing.

Is it possible to rebuke without quarrelling?

In a sense, yes.

[Nalaar]

It really is only for isolated strict ascetics alone in their monk's cell in a desert or whatever.

Right, so in order to live this way all you have to do is sacrifice relationships with other people, and indeed the concept of society altogether. And you wonder why I think it's undesirable?

Sometimes "rebuking" people is asked for

Is it possible to rebuke without quarrelling?

[Borg Refinery]

(shrugs)



If folks won't stick to a promise to abide by rules then what can you do. It is all voluntary, no one is forced to do anything.



Most monks probably wouldn't be able to follow the ascetical homily lines to the letter anyways. It really is only for isolated strict ascetics alone in their monk's cell in a desert or whatever.



Sometimes "rebuking" people is asked for

[Nalaar]

Monastic discipline is generally set out in stone. Any "small" groups voluntarily abide by it.



Who is allowed in the group? - Those who follow the discipline.



Can someone be removed from the group? - The Abbott  can disrobe monks.



How are the groups resources collected and distributed?

etc. - These rules are set out in stone, it is on a rotating basis.



The rules are preagreed upon.

Okay, so what I see above is ripe for personal conflict.



To paper over the obvious cracks one has to accept the premise that the 'pre-agreed rules' absolve any conflict...when of course they do not. However, pointing that out to the group is likely a good way to get yourself kicked out (who knows if they see the irony in that?)

[Borg Refinery]

You can imagine any number of group conflicts -

What is the decision making process for the group?

Monastic discipline is generally set out in stone. Any "small" groups voluntarily abide by it.



Who is allowed in the group? - Those who follow the discipline.



Can someone be removed from the group? - The Abbott  can disrobe monks.



How are the groups resources collected and distributed?

etc. - These rules are set out in stone, it is on a rotating basis.



The rules are preagreed upon.

[Nalaar]

There is no such thing as a consequence free state, even when you're alone.

We're agreed on that.

And what consequence for a group, what situation for example..?

You can imagine any number of group conflicts -

What is the decision making process for the group?

Who is allowed in the group?

Can someone be removed from the group?

How are the groups resources collected and distributed?

etc.

[Borg Refinery]

Okay, but what if the thing they're 'agreeing to differ' on has a consequence?



If you can live in some sort of consequence free state then sure the OP could be possible, otherwise I'm not seeing it.

There is no such thing as a consequence free state, even when you're alone.



And what consequence for a group, what situation for example..?