The ones who walk away from Omelas

[Borg Refinery]

Another alternative would be buying them at a much higher cost, but this is unpopular.

Hey, old stuff lasted and wasn't built with an obsoletion or breakdown date in mind, saved money in the long run.



Another alternative would be equivalized wages, but when the EU introduced equivalence in wages for posted workers and natives, who opposed it? Oh yes...the Tories, under May or Cameron I can't recall, while complaining about the EU...

[johnofgwent]

Ignorance is certainly a pleasure enjoyed by many, but i don't think it's desirable, and certainly wouldn't give any comfort to the person living in misery.



We all know (or with little effort can find out) what misery goes into sustaining our lifestyles - Modern electronics, abundant varieties of foods, disposable clothing and endless entertainment... I am not ignorant, nor are you, but i;d guess most of our choices are not representative of that.

Actually I dispute that. MOST of my choices, like my deliberate choice to stick with my diesel car, and my choices of what food I buy, ARE in fact representative of a wish not to prop up the sort of societies i wish to see eradicated.

[Nalaar]

Playing devil's advocate I guess, but there is also an argument that if the West didn't buy the electronics, the clothes etc those making them and earning very little would have nothing at all. Not a perfect scenario of course it would be better if all could work and earn more.

Another alternative would be buying them at a much higher cost, but this is unpopular.

[T00ts]

Yes, as I said i can imagine a good case being made for a 'but i had no choice' defense to some circumstances, but most people do have a choice most of the time.

Playing devil's advocate I guess, but there is also an argument that if the West didn't buy the electronics, the clothes etc those making them and earning very little would have nothing at all. Not a perfect scenario of course it would be better if all could work and earn more.

[Nalaar]

Everything is a choice, but there's also an element of compulsion isn't there.



For example pensioners choosing between eating or their heating. One leads to death, one leads to horrible stomach pains etc.



Not much of a choice is it. Sorry folks for being so grim but I needed a strong example.



It seems like a largely fitting example, but the um environmental stuff I'm not so sure about.

Yes, as I said i can imagine a good case being made for a 'but i had no choice' defense to some circumstances, but most people do have a choice most of the time.

[Nalaar]

As I said in my earlier post there may be those who stand in ignorance of the abuse done to their own but this fable refers to a scenario where the persons enjoying the good life do so in full and certain knowledge of the abuse done to that child.

Ignorance is certainly a pleasure enjoyed by many, but i don't think it's desirable, and certainly wouldn't give any comfort to the person living in misery.



We all know (or with little effort can find out) what misery goes into sustaining our lifestyles - Modern electronics, abundant varieties of foods, disposable clothing and endless entertainment... I am not ignorant, nor are you, but i;d guess most of our choices are not representative of that.

[Borg Refinery]

There arep plenty of 'what about x' scenarios that one can imagine, and arguments can be made either way depending on the case.



My position is simply to remind people that these decisions exist, and that they are personally involved in these decisions, they may feel 100% justified in making the choice they do, I just want them to be aware that they made a choice in the first place.

Everything is a choice, but there's also an element of compulsion isn't there.



For example pensioners choosing between eating or their heating. One leads to death, one leads to horrible stomach pains etc.



Not much of a choice is it. Sorry folks for being so grim but I needed a strong example.



It seems like a largely fitting example, but the um environmental stuff I'm not so sure about.

[johnofgwent]

There arep plenty of 'what about x' scenarios that one can imagine, and arguments can be made either way depending on the case.



My position is simply to remind people that these decisions exist, and that they are personally involved in these decisions, they may feel 100% justified in making the choice they do, I just want them to be aware that they made a choice in the first place.

Except that I rather doubt many knew. Yiu dontvseem to.have bothered picking up my point about ignorance of the facts.



Of course, to the lefty self loathing appreciation society  admission that people act in ignorance of downsides and might have acted differently if they knew (the whole rationale behind crowdshaming).does rather scupper the demand that you loathe yourself for your actions ...

[johnofgwent]

You could chose to live a life that is much less misery full for another person to support. However that would mostly likely make your life much worse.



We make choices everyday to promote our happiness over someone else's misery. I think we should be honest and accepting of that.

Well, I choose to drive a diesel not an electric vehicle.



I do so in hope hope greta will hear of my disobedience and die of an apoplectic seizure



And because I actively choose not to go down the road of sending children into heavy metal strip mines.



If we really wanted to reduce noxious emissions we would use hydrogen fuel cells.



The chinese choose not to



Which is an excellent reason to bankrupt them by not buying anything from them.

[T00ts]

My main concern reading the short story was for the mental state of the writer.

 :hattip

[Nalaar]

Ok so we are bridging the gap now.



I can agree with that perhaps, but what about phones? What about the oldies stuck self isolating with barely anyone to help them?

There arep plenty of 'what about x' scenarios that one can imagine, and arguments can be made either way depending on the case.



My position is simply to remind people that these decisions exist, and that they are personally involved in these decisions, they may feel 100% justified in making the choice they do, I just want them to be aware that they made a choice in the first place.

[Barry]

My main concern reading the short story was for the mental state of the writer.

[Borg Refinery]

Some things, sure, but no one has ever been forced to buy an iPad.

Ok so we are bridging the gap now.



I can agree with that perhaps, but what about phones? What about the oldies stuck self isolating with barely anyone to help them?

[T00ts]

Some things, sure, but no one has ever been forced to buy an iPad.

That is true! Luckily I don't own one - does that make me a good and caring person?  

[Nalaar]

::  :: Good try. I am like many many others who do as much as they can willingly and without being pushed into some sort of guilt trip. Might I suggest a new reading list that might begin to set you straight on your outlook on life?

I think we have come full circle to another thread in which I expressed how no-one is doing 'as much as they can' so I'll leave it at that. Good discussion.



I would of course welcome reading suggestions.