Elitism, clarse and all that...

[papasmurf]

Feck off. You edited the post after posting your usual one line response.



"Last edited by papasmurf on Sat May 30, 2020 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total"

I had other things to do before the edit. Sorting out my emergency mobile phone which is somewhat more important that bothering with your inane blathering.

There are more than one class systems, and that applies to Britain.

[DeppityDawg]

Bollocks.  You annoy far too easily.  I made a valid comment.

Feck off. You edited the post after posting your usual one line response.



"Last edited by papasmurf on Sat May 30, 2020 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total"

[papasmurf]

Here we go. Snip out one sentence, make a remark, annoy the feck out of everyone, destroy the thread.

Bollocks.  You annoy far too easily.  I made a valid comment.

[DeppityDawg]

That is class.

Here we go. Snip out one sentence, make a remark, annoy the feck out of everyone, destroy the thread. Ok, "revolutionaries" and "capitalist dogs", whatever you want to call it. Please either address the post, add a meaning or conclusion of you own, or feck off. My preference is for the latter.

[papasmurf]

This thread was also supposed to be about class, before you lot of commies and malcontents turned it into a rag about the proletariat and the bourgeoisie.

That is class.

I was born and brought up in a village with a wide range of classes and incomes, all mixed in together, there was no separation/segregation.

I had no problems as one of the "lower class," getting some extra tuition for algebra at no charge from a "middle class," man.

That happy situation changed when a lot of new expensive private housing was built in the village in the late 1960s and "white flighters" with a bad attitudes to the "lower class," moved into the new housing. (They also brought crime to a previously crime free village.  (I have no idea why.)

[DeppityDawg]

This thread was also supposed to be about class, before you lot of commies and malcontents turned it into a rag about the proletariat and the bourgeoisie. It was, partly, in response to the remark that "class" doesn't exist, or that its just a mechanism to "other" people, whatever that means. Yeah sure. Like I said, I've met plenty of working clarse people who say "I'm better than that guy because I lived in a council house"  :roll:



As I remember it, there was at least a strong sense of community on those council estates at least – maybe even solidarity. I'm talking about the 60s and 70s now, and it certainly isn't the same now. I think its also fair to say that it was women who largely held family units together. They were the ones who provided the care and compassion, and if they worked as well, also had responsibility for looking after the home (such as it was). The men meanwhile mostly did jobs that were often just hard labour – my old man was a docker and he was as strong as an Ox – and in a lot of them accidents and industrial diseases were common. It was not uncommon for men to die in their mid to late 60s, and in some case (like my old man), earlier than that due to excessive drinking. Drink, the curse of the working class as they say. How can anyone who has grown up in a middle class environment where their parents were white collar or professionals ever understand that? Let alone turn around and haughtily declare "there is no such thing as class". Feck right off.



I know there are only a couple of posters who will understand what I mean, but there was a sense of community there once. You may have had little, but those around you were mostly the same. There wasn't this sense of having to have the latest i-phone or the trendiest trainers mentality (there weren't any anyway  :: ), because no one had them. Yeah, people still got picked on and it was still rough, but it wasn't the "benefits street" media trope you see today. There wasn't so much of a stigma attached to it, because so many were in the same boat. There is something much more compassionate about someone lending you a fiver when they only had ten quid left themselves. This was how it worked. My mums friend, Cath, would lend her money to get through, and my mum would do the same for her in return. I remember them both in our kitchen smoking Embassy No10s and calling out her old man, but you know what, either of them would have done anything for their kids with their last fiver. It was when no one even had a fiver that the problems came. Is that "communism"? Feck knows. Its human nature I think. When you share hardships together, it forms a bond that's much harder to break than merely living next door to one another. How many of today's private estate dwelling middle class even know their next door neighbours name, never mind share their troubles?



Has becoming a richer society in general reduced poverty? Sure. Has it made us better or happier? Who knows? Its sad that its often hardship and suffering that cause people to become closer. What doesn't kill you, as they say. That I think is (or used to be) the enduring quality of the "working class".

[Borg Refinery]

Communism doesn't seem to work, that's not in question.



You seem to agree that Capitalism creates total monopolies by default, thereby leading to a non-free market, and when you said that societies are failing because they're 'mixed economies' as opposed to pure free market economies.. you appear to have created a circular argument.



Or at least it seems that way to me.



The same problems seem to happen in every political & economic system there's ever been in history.

[johnofgwent]

Ok, but 'pure capitalism' (Rothbardian?) is impossible as monopolies and cronyism always manifests in any system...







Right now there's mass rioting in Minneapolis, just for example.

Ok. I think you have created a scenario I cannot recall occurring before.



Back on.page 1 of this thread, in a post of little more than two paragraphs, our very own remain evangelist hyperduck quack quack said that the things that go so wrong in a communist society when the elite decide the rules for everyone else dont apply to the elite, also go wrong in a capitalist, or wannabe capitalist society but it has less of an impact.



For the first time in quite awhile, if ever before, I find myself saying.... 'what he said'



If only because there is a day of reckoning. Eventually, every capitalist society on the planet which have also deemed themselves democracies, have to yield to the voter.



There are a few countries (Saudi Arabia being one) which do not submit to this. But MBS will find out, probably before my grand-daughter gets the vote, thztbthe people actually running Saudi wear black towel and black robes just as they do in Iran, and that to try and modernise them invites all sorts of things that go bump in the night. Like the Crown Prince 'jumping' to his death from a palace balcony....



No, I'm with HQQ. The Communist society fails because the elite dont want to honour the 'to each' part of the deal. The capitalist society has the same end game, but you dont always have to stage a coup to become part of the elite, and concentrating the wealth in that elite was the declared aim anyway.

[Borg Refinery]

Well, it isnt a capitalist country is it.



It's a mixed economy.

Ok, but 'pure capitalism' (Rothbardian?) is impossible as monopolies and cronyism always manifests in any system...

As I said in other posts here and elsewhere, I took very little interest in yank politics until the last cycle of elections started. At that time it seemed a high probability my youngest was going to be a 21st century GI bride and that sparked my interest.



The problem with America is its healthcare system.



Everything else I rather like what I see, having been there..



And given the options available, I'd have voted for trump.

Right now there's mass rioting in Minneapolis, just for example.

[johnofgwent]

Is our society a success?



Is America?



I know you're going to say 'relative to other systems', but comparing rotten apples with slightly less rotten apples... you know.



I don't want to bring it up but, look at all the terrible stuff that's happened to you and yours? How can you say that's symptomatic of a good society?

Well, it isnt a capitalist country is it.



It's a mixed economy.



As I said in other posts here and elsewhere, I took very little interest in yank politics until the last cycle of elections started. At that time it seemed a high probability my youngest was going to be a 21st century GI bride and that sparked my interest.



The problem with America is its healthcare system.



Everything else I rather like what I see, having been there..



And given the options available, I'd have voted for trump.

[Borg Refinery]

Probably so, but I was taking about the failure of communism to adhere to its ideals. Capitalism by its very nature delivers the result i described. In capitalism, such outcome is a success.

Is our society a success?



Is America?



I know you're going to say 'relative to other systems', but comparing rotten apples with slightly less rotten apples... you know.



I don't want to bring it up but, look at all the terrible stuff that's happened to you and yours? How can you say that's symptomatic of a good society?

[johnofgwent]

Correct, then again the next bit applies equally to Capitalism and its obese oligarchs (and wannabe oligarchs)..

Probably so, but I was taking about the failure of communism to adhere to its ideals. Capitalism by its very nature delivers the result i described. In capitalism, such outcome is a success.

[DeppityDawg]

I think this forum is definitely predominantly Middle class in sentiment and values.

[Borchester]

:shock:



You wouldn't find me wearing a blue ribbon!

They all say that.



Sorry Boysie, your cover is blown



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcZ6fnRLDLU">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcZ6fnRLDLU

[Borg Refinery]

Any system that seeks to force the whole world and everyone in it to be subjugated is inherently wrong in my opinion.



That's my only real problem with capitalism just like with socialism. IF people want to live under capitalism then who is anyone else to tell them they're wrong? They might not get on well under a different system. Same for others under other systems...



Heck, I'm not even suggesting it does or doesn't work. In fact, most types of societies probably COULD function on a small scale whereas they'd fail on a larger scale.



I've no doubt that in a free world, Von Misean libertarian capitalism would be fine on a smaller scale - as would 'infantile ultra leftism' as Lenin described it; left wing communism.



The problem remains constant - the power brokers always find loopholes to try abuse the system, under any system and they invariably seem to succeed; that or they crush any society that tries to assert itself for the common good. Small Alaskan villages where they're all really right-wing but practice 'philanthropy' and look out for each other are more communist in practice as opposed to lip service than most commie societies ever managed to be (don't tell them though).