What just happened ?

[Borchester]

I'm not Irish.  Well, I suppose technically I'm a quarter Irish, but my comment was not from a victim standpoint.

Yes it is.



You are a victim. You may be a quarter Irish victim or a 50% Martian victim, but the moment you decide to run to teacher or the board admin because you have been offended or even think about doing so, you are a victim. And when you do that the world will organise a group hug and say, oh, poor little Javert, he is a victim. And at the same time it will think think what a snivelling git, when will the sad b*st*rd grow a pair?



It may not be right and it may not be fair, but that is the way the game is, has  and always will be played.



So do yourself a favour. Stand up straight, put your shoulders back and act the man

[Javert]

Probably.



I always think it a little sad when a grown man wants to act the victim but it is your choice

I'm not Irish.  Well, I suppose technically I'm a quarter Irish, but my comment was not from a victim standpoint.

[T00ts]

As Conchùr says here, Northern Ireland is an anomaly. No arrangement will satisfy everyone. It's the only thing that gave me pause in the '75 referendum - while the government were busy telling us that it had nothing to do with giving up our independence, I thought that even though they were manifestly lying, perhaps giving up our independence would be worth it if it brought peace to the province.  Being nobbut a lad at the time, my opposition to the EEC had more to do with anti-nationalism than anything else: nations were a bad thing and big nations were worse than small ones, and my certainty about that outranked the possibility of peace between the provinces of the eventual super-state, so I voted Leave.



Post Brexit (if that ever happens) a different dispensation for NI with could be a good thing, giving it a foot in both camps.  Are there politicians working on the possibilities?  The more imaginative business people probably are, and smugglers certainly are   .

Thank you more food for thought.

[Paulus de B]

...The Good Friday Agreement is not about placating violent people. It protects the rights of the people of Northern Ireland, the overwhelming majority of whom never partook in any violence, to have their nationality and identity recognised and given meaningful effect. It helps to ensure the social cohesion of the island and to acknowledge the fact that Northern Ireland is a quirk of history — a place caught into the central point of the Venn diagram of Anglo-Irish history and relations..

As Conchùr says here, Northern Ireland is an anomaly. No arrangement will satisfy everyone. It's the only thing that gave me pause in the '75 referendum - while the government were busy telling us that it had nothing to do with giving up our independence, I thought that even though they were manifestly lying, perhaps giving up our independence would be worth it if it brought peace to the province.  Being nobbut a lad at the time, my opposition to the EEC had more to do with anti-nationalism than anything else: nations were a bad thing and big nations were worse than small ones, and my certainty about that outranked the possibility of peace between the provinces of the eventual super-state, so I voted Leave.



Post Brexit (if that ever happens) a different dispensation for NI with could be a good thing, giving it a foot in both camps.  Are there politicians working on the possibilities?  The more imaginative business people probably are, and smugglers certainly are   .

[T00ts]

Because you need to have legal certainties to protect rights. I am Irish, I have always been Irish, and my British citizenship is nothing but the result of a historical quirk whereby a lazy and disastrous decision was made to draw a border on our island and cut Irishman off from Irishman. Let us imagine, had the Germans managed to occupy and settle German communities on English soil in the aftermath of WW2, that they had drawn a border across the southern six counties of England to retain them as German territory and declaring that any English person caught on the wrong side of that border was German — not English, not British — but German.  Would you like to be stripped of your nationality ? Would you like to be told that you are not British ?  Would you like the fact that you were now economically, politically and socially ostracised from your own countrymen down the road?



The Good Friday Agreement gave people like me our right to be Irish again. My Irish nationality and citizenship is legally recognised, I can freely interact across the island without much political, social or economic impediment and I can enjoy the rights of an Irish citizen.  Such rights cannot be taken for granted.  Indeed, there is a case going through the courts at the moment where the Home Office is attempting to ride roughshod over the nationality and citizenship rights of an Irish woman from Derry, Emma de Souza.  I'm actually delivering a seminar on it later today for some university students. This case proves the ongoing importance of the GFA and making sure that the British government continues to be held account on its solemn obligations.  Could we live in peace without the GFA? Of course we could. But it won't be until the political system demonstrates that it can be trusted to respect the spirit of the GFA's principles without a legal framework being necessary.

Thank you.   Food for thought.

[Conchúr]

I have never really got into the GFA so forgive my ignorance, but why, after all the troubles and so many years and after those affected the most were able to accept it to move on for the sake of peace, is it not possible to keep that peace without the GFA? At least that's what I have understood from the recent talks.

Because you need to have legal certainties to protect rights. I am Irish, I have always been Irish, and my British citizenship is nothing but the result of a historical quirk whereby a lazy and disastrous decision was made to draw a border on our island and cut Irishman off from Irishman. Let us imagine, had the Germans managed to occupy and settle German communities on English soil in the aftermath of WW2, that they had drawn a border across the southern six counties of England to retain them as German territory and declaring that any English person caught on the wrong side of that border was German — not English, not British — but German.  Would you like to be stripped of your nationality ? Would you like to be told that you are not British ?  Would you like the fact that you were now economically, politically and socially ostracised from your own countrymen down the road?



The Good Friday Agreement gave people like me our right to be Irish again. My Irish nationality and citizenship is legally recognised, I can freely interact across the island without much political, social or economic impediment and I can enjoy the rights of an Irish citizen.  Such rights cannot be taken for granted.  Indeed, there is a case going through the courts at the moment where the Home Office is attempting to ride roughshod over the nationality and citizenship rights of an Irish woman from Derry, Emma de Souza.  I'm actually delivering a seminar on it later today for some university students. This case proves the ongoing importance of the GFA and making sure that the British government continues to be held account on its solemn obligations.  Could we live in peace without the GFA? Of course we could. But it won't be until the political system demonstrates that it can be trusted to respect the spirit of the GFA's principles without a legal framework being necessary.

[T00ts]

A fine rant, but I fail to see the actual point or how this relates to Northern Irish matters in the context of Brexit.



The prisoner release arrangement was part of the GFA and the people of Northern Ireland, who were the people who suffered the most at the hands of the violent actions of these peopl, ratified it by popular vote. I voted for the GFA even though it meant that the people who shot my 17 year old cousin, and the man who shot one of my oldest friends, both walked free. It was a painful moment but we took that risk on the basis that we felt it was an important element of moving on, and we have been vindicated in that by 20 years of unprecedented peace and stability on this island.

I have never really got into the GFA so forgive my ignorance, but why, after all the troubles and so many years and after those affected the most were able to accept it to move on for the sake of peace, is it not possible to keep that peace without the GFA? At least that's what I have understood from the recent talks.

[Conchúr]

The only thing I know about that agreement is that a murdering piece of shite has a stay out of jail free letter thanks to the work of the apologist for ANC terrorism Peter Hain, a man who saw no problem in using terror in direct action as a weapon of political persuasion himself in his younger days, while the party that gave him succour and wealth to repay his terrorism wishes to see the the British servicemen required to deal with those bastards hung for it. Or they would, if their fallen idol Blair had not taken the rope off the statute book to ensure his lying Warmongering neck never felt it.

A fine rant, but I fail to see the actual point or how this relates to Northern Irish matters in the context of Brexit.



The prisoner release arrangement was part of the GFA and the people of Northern Ireland, who were the people who suffered the most at the hands of the violent actions of these peopl, ratified it by popular vote. I voted for the GFA even though it meant that the people who shot my 17 year old cousin, and the man who shot one of my oldest friends, both walked free. It was a painful moment but we took that risk on the basis that we felt it was an important element of moving on, and we have been vindicated in that by 20 years of unprecedented peace and stability on this island.

[johnofgwent]

The Good Friday Agreement is not about placating violent people.

The only thing I know about that agreement is that a murdering piece of shite has a stay out of jail free letter thanks to the work of the apologist for ANC terrorism Peter Hain, a man who saw no problem in using terror in direct action as a weapon of political persuasion himself in his younger days, while the party that gave him succour and wealth to repay his terrorism wishes to see the the British servicemen required to deal with those bastards hung for it. Or they would, if their fallen idol Blair had not taken the rope off the statute book to ensure his lying Warmongering neck never felt it.

[Conchúr]

Probably.



I always think it a little sad when a grown man wants to act the victim but it is your choice

You're a grown man who sits at a computer telling us how little he cares about Irish people and yet never shuts up about them.



But yeah Borchester, carry on telling us how much people in Ireland should be ignored while you spend day after day ehhhhh talking about people in Ireland.

[Conchúr]

No. I'm saying what I am saying. which is that yet again I see the British Parliament bending over backwards to take it from people who have a proven track record of resorting to violence if they do not get their way in matters of politics.



It seems to me is those who like the solution the men of violence are offering or demanding who need to defend their liking of it

But they haven't been "taking it" from people who resorted to violence.  The only real active agent from Northern Ireland which has been involved in Brexit is the DUP, and far from taking it from them the current government is openly shafting them. So I don't really get what you're talking about.  



The Good Friday Agreement is not about placating violent people. It protects the rights of the people of Northern Ireland, the overwhelming majority of whom never partook in any violence, to have their nationality and identity recognised and given meaningful effect. It helps to ensure the social cohesion of the island and to acknowledge the fact that Northern Ireland is a quirk of history — a place caught into the central point of the Venn diagram of Anglo-Irish history and relations.



Those who think it is about placating violent people simply demonstrate their lack of understanding of who and what it safeguards.

[johnofgwent]

Placating the IRA? So are you saying that the vast majority of people on the island of Ireland, including a majority in Northern Ireland, who want to keep their island's land border free flowing are all in the IRA?

No. I'm saying what I am saying. which is that yet again I see the British Parliament bending over backwards to take it up the shitter from people who have a proven track record of resorting to violence if they do not get their way in matters of politics.



It seems to me is those who like the solution the men of violence are offering or demanding who need to defend their liking of it

[Borchester]

More racist nonsense but no doubt will be passed off as a joke if reported.

Probably.



I always think it a little sad when a grown man wants to act the victim but it is your choice

[Javert]

There is nothing wrong with talking to terrorists. The problem is that the Irish ones have nothing much to talk about. They are happy to drone on about about their ancient wrongs and how Cromwell rogered the cattle and whatever inane fantasies John Ford put in their heads, but at the end of the day they are just rubbish from the Ulster council estates. Taigs and Proddies, both sides are best ignored and then dumped.

More racist nonsense but no doubt will be passed off as a joke if reported.

[Borchester]

We want to get rid of Ulster, but at the same time, anyone who tries to have a conversation with the people who want Ulster to leave the UK in order to find out their issues is a terrorist sympathiser.  Welcome to right wing logic.

There is nothing wrong with talking to terrorists. The problem is that the Irish ones have nothing much to talk about. They are happy to drone on about about their ancient wrongs and how Cromwell rogered the cattle and whatever inane fantasies John Ford put in their heads, but at the end of the day they are just rubbish from the Ulster council estates. Taigs and Proddies, both sides are best ignored and then dumped.