All Lives Matter

[Barry]

Papasmurf, you seem very confident at what has gone on in various locations in London, whilst you are locked down in Cornwall. I wonder how this can be.

[papasmurf]

It's like talking to that barbecue you cobbled together,you repost a quote of mine where I say this
"I didn't say that those pictured attacked the police" but you did say they'd stop the far right and they didn't.

They were guarding memorials, nothing more nothing less. They have nothing to do with the far right.
I wonder sometimes if you bother to read anything properly.
A group of people are being accused of attacking the police when they did not. Who the people who did attack the police are is matter for investigation.

[cromwell]

First off your persisten posting (shouting) in capitals does nothing to validate your argument,I didn't say those pictured attacked the police you said those very people would stop the far right,they didn't did they? as usual you go off on a ramble trying to present your argument as fact when it's anything but.
And here no paywall https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53031072

The people guarding memorials were there to do that and nothing else, there are none of them in the pictures in that BBC link.

As is usual waste of time in replying to your make believe because you never address that put to you.

The only make believe is accusing a very distinctive looking group of people of attacking the police when there is zero evidence for it.
I suggest you try and find any evidence they attacked the police. (Seriously.) Given the clothing, insignia, badges, patches they were wearing.

It's like talking to that barbecue you cobbled together,you repost a quote of mine where I say this
"I didn't say that those pictured attacked the police" but you did say they'd stop the far right and they didn't.
It's like trying to debate with Aesop .

[Borg Refinery]

First off your persisten posting (shouting) in capitals does nothing to validate your argument,I didn't say those pictured attacked the police you said those very people would stop the far right,they didn't did they? as usual you go off on a ramble trying to present your argument as fact when it's anything but.
And here no paywall https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53031072

The people guarding memorials were there to do that and nothing else, there are none of them in the pictures in that BBC link.

They were mostly bikers and ex forces and other 'hard' folk.


But you're wrong that it was ONLY them around.


From the Torygraph:


"Earlier today, far-right groups including Britain First gathered around the statue of Winston Churchill and the Cenotaph and said that they intended to protect the historical statues from vandalism. "

The 'hard folk' didn't fight the cops but the amoebic twatfaces from Britain Last and the footie hulas decided to start throwing bottles at police and fencing too. One of them even urinated on a memorial to PC Keith Palmer. There's video footage of it all over the web.


The BLM march was cancelled btw.


The whole thing is a clusterfeck of epic proportion.

[papasmurf]

First off your persisten posting (shouting) in capitals does nothing to validate your argument,I didn't say those pictured attacked the police you said those very people would stop the far right,they didn't did they? as usual you go off on a ramble trying to present your argument as fact when it's anything but.
And here no paywall https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53031072

The people guarding memorials were there to do that and nothing else, there are none of them in the pictures in that BBC link.

As is usual waste of time in replying to your make believe because you never address that put to you.

The only make believe is accusing a very distinctive looking group of people of attacking the police when there is zero evidence for it.
I suggest you try and find any evidence they attacked the police. (Seriously.) Given the clothing, insignia, badges, patches they were wearing.

[cromwell]

First off your persisten posting (shouting) in capitals does nothing to validate your argument,I didn't say those pictured attacked the police you said those very people would stop the far right,they didn't did they? as usual you go off on a ramble trying to present your argument as fact when it's anything but.
And here no paywall https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53031072

The people guarding memorials were there to do that and nothing else, there are none of them in the pictures in that BBC link.

As is usual waste of time in replying to your make believe because you never address that put to you.

[papasmurf]

First off your persisten posting (shouting) in capitals does nothing to validate your argument,I didn't say those pictured attacked the police you said those very people would stop the far right,they didn't did they? as usual you go off on a ramble trying to present your argument as fact when it's anything but.
And here no paywall https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53031072

The people guarding memorials were there to do that and nothing else, there are none of them in the pictures in that BBC link.

[cromwell]

Right so that well known liberal paper the Torygraph have got it all wrong and britain first weren't there didn't attack the police and nobody pissed on a memorial to a police officer.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matter-protests-london-statues-racism-churchill/

Those guarding the memorials  had NOTHING to do with Britain First or any far right group. (Also your link is paywalled.)
I suspect anyone reporting or commenting it was those guarding the memorials who attacked the police will have to apologise.
Those involved in guarding memorials are VERY distinctive, none can be seen attacking the police.

First off your persisten posting (shouting) in capitals does nothing to validate your argument,I didn't say those pictured attacked the police you said those very people would stop the far right,they didn't did they? as usual you go off on a ramble trying to present your argument as fact when it's anything but.
And here no paywall https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53031072

[papasmurf]

Right so that well known liberal paper the Torygraph have got it all wrong and britain first weren't there didn't attack the police and nobody pissed on a memorial to a police officer.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matter-protests-london-statues-racism-churchill/

Those guarding the memorials  had NOTHING to do with Britain First or any far right group. (Also your link is paywalled.)
I suspect anyone reporting or commenting it was those guarding the memorials who attacked the police will have to apologise.
Those involved in guarding memorials are VERY distinctive, none can be seen attacking the police.

[cromwell]

Also - didn't you say your photo was of Bristol - I do not know what is going on in Bristol I am talking about what's happening in London?

The same group was protecting the Cenotaph and Churchill's in London. (There are a lot of them.) They would not have let the far right hooligans get even close.  Anything that they guard does not need police as well.

Right so that well known liberal paper the Torygraph have got it all wrong and britain first weren't there didn't attack the police and nobody pissed on a memorial to a police officer.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matter-protests-london-statues-racism-churchill/

[papasmurf]

Also - didn't you say your photo was of Bristol - I do not know what is going on in Bristol I am talking about what's happening in London?

The same group was protecting the Cenotaph and Churchill's in London. (There are a lot of them.) They would not have let the far right hooligans get even close.  Anything that they guard does not need police as well. 

[Borg Refinery]

What about his philanthropy? Colston gave an exceptionally large amount of money to charity both locally and nationally. Having already given extensively during his life, at his death he bequeathed around £71,000 to charity – an immense sum at the time, and nearly as much as the £100,000 that he left to his family. Colston was a devout high Anglican Tory and Royalist, and was particularly concerned by the rise of religious dissent, such as the Quakers. He directed a major part of his wealth towards promoting a specific style of religious education and opposing dissident religions, including giving extensively to Bristol churches, founded almshouses, donated money to Queen Elizabeth's Hospital School, and founding a religious school for 100 boys. After his death, a number of 'Colston Societies' sprung up, to continue charitable giving in what they saw as Colston's tradition.
We do not deny that Colston gave an exceptional amount to charity. However, historically Colston's charity has been celebrated uncritically.  This does not fit with the ideal of remembering history 'in the round'. Presenting Colston as a philanthropist is deeply disrespectful to the tens of thousands of people whose enslavement he helped to fund and organise.

https://counteringcolston.wordpress.com/who-was-edward-colston-2/

Did you notice my wording "arguably a philanthropist"? No, such subtleties go straight over your head I guess.

[Borg Refinery]

Meanwhile there protesters in London who were supposedly there to protect the statues against a Black Lives Matter protest that was cancelled, are now attacking the police and one has been pictured urinating on the memorial to a police officer who died in the line of duty.

Have you any proof that those protecting statues attacked the police? (Seriously.)  Frankly I doubt it VERY much. For reasons I am not going to put on an internet forum.
You either back up your accusation with evidence, or retract it and apologise.

If there were people there who were legitimately there for the sole and only reason of protecting statues, I doubt they have attacked the police.  However, there are videos and TV images from London today of large groups of far right demonstrators assaulting police officers - there is one video where about 15 police officers are assaulted in the space of 30 seconds.

Also - didn't you say your photo was of Bristol - I do not know what is going on in Bristol I am talking about what's happening in London?

I have no issue with protecting statues from being attacked of defaced, especially if they are general war memorials to normal people rather than statues which are there to glorify an racist.

However, this is a complicated issue that should not be decided by mobs on either side - certain figures from history like Colston or Cecil Rhodes have no redeeming features that I can detect - even back in their own times they were called out as evil men by many people, and their entire lives were about exploiting other races in order to make themselves and their country rich.  Cecil Rhodes even stated in his will that his entire life had been about ensuring the superiority of the White race, or words to that effect.  However there are many other people who are more complex - figures like Winston Churchill who made some vital contributions to British history, but who also was deeply involved in some questionable and arguably unnecessary atrocities. 

Also, in my view the police should be there protecting those statues.

All history is complex, Colston was arguably a philanthropist and the other Powell guy invented the boy scouts.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/af08e2b0-c436-11e5-808f-8231cd71622e

That's about Rhodes but it applies to all of them - but they exist in every country, not just in England. Most other imperial nations would've subjugated us as badly, worse or maybe slightly more nicely than we did them - and THAT is the truth.

I don't agree with destroying the statues, they belong in a museum and our history should be fully revealed with no revisionism on ANY side. Only then might we actually learn something from it.

From what I could find about Colston his history was re-written as a philanthropist by the Victorians who chose to ignore where all his money came from.

I can't see any good reason to commemorate and glorify such a man today in 2020.  Indeed, I haven't even really seen hardly anyone defend him apart from you in that last  post.  Almost all the argument I've seen was about how this was the "wrong way" to resolve the issue rather than saying Colston was a hero who deserved to be there.

RIF.


If you clicked on the link it describes them as robber barons who atoned for their misdeeds through philanthropic largesse.


I'm sure I don't need to explain to you what that means, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Javert]

Meanwhile there protesters in London who were supposedly there to protect the statues against a Black Lives Matter protest that was cancelled, are now attacking the police and one has been pictured urinating on the memorial to a police officer who died in the line of duty.

Have you any proof that those protecting statues attacked the police? (Seriously.)  Frankly I doubt it VERY much. For reasons I am not going to put on an internet forum.
You either back up your accusation with evidence, or retract it and apologise.

If there were people there who were legitimately there for the sole and only reason of protecting statues, I doubt they have attacked the police.  However, there are videos and TV images from London today of large groups of far right demonstrators assaulting police officers - there is one video where about 15 police officers are assaulted in the space of 30 seconds.

Also - didn't you say your photo was of Bristol - I do not know what is going on in Bristol I am talking about what's happening in London?

I have no issue with protecting statues from being attacked of defaced, especially if they are general war memorials to normal people rather than statues which are there to glorify an racist.

However, this is a complicated issue that should not be decided by mobs on either side - certain figures from history like Colston or Cecil Rhodes have no redeeming features that I can detect - even back in their own times they were called out as evil men by many people, and their entire lives were about exploiting other races in order to make themselves and their country rich.  Cecil Rhodes even stated in his will that his entire life had been about ensuring the superiority of the White race, or words to that effect.  However there are many other people who are more complex - figures like Winston Churchill who made some vital contributions to British history, but who also was deeply involved in some questionable and arguably unnecessary atrocities. 

Also, in my view the police should be there protecting those statues.

All history is complex, Colston was arguably a philanthropist and the other Powell guy invented the boy scouts.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/af08e2b0-c436-11e5-808f-8231cd71622e

That's about Rhodes but it applies to all of them - but they exist in every country, not just in England. Most other imperial nations would've subjugated us as badly, worse or maybe slightly more nicely than we did them - and THAT is the truth.

I don't agree with destroying the statues, they belong in a museum and our history should be fully revealed with no revisionism on ANY side. Only then might we actually learn something from it.

From what I could find about Colston his history was re-written as a philanthropist by the Victorians who chose to ignore where all his money came from.

I can't see any good reason to commemorate and glorify such a man today in 2020.  Indeed, I haven't even really seen hardly anyone defend him apart from you in that last  post.  Almost all the argument I've seen was about how this was the "wrong way" to resolve the issue rather than saying Colston was a hero who deserved to be there.

[Borg Refinery]

Meanwhile there protesters in London who were supposedly there to protect the statues against a Black Lives Matter protest that was cancelled, are now attacking the police and one has been pictured urinating on the memorial to a police officer who died in the line of duty.

Have you any proof that those protecting statues attacked the police? (Seriously.)  Frankly I doubt it VERY much. For reasons I am not going to put on an internet forum.
You either back up your accusation with evidence, or retract it and apologise.

If there were people there who were legitimately there for the sole and only reason of protecting statues, I doubt they have attacked the police.  However, there are videos and TV images from London today of large groups of far right demonstrators assaulting police officers - there is one video where about 15 police officers are assaulted in the space of 30 seconds.

Also - didn't you say your photo was of Bristol - I do not know what is going on in Bristol I am talking about what's happening in London?

I have no issue with protecting statues from being attacked of defaced, especially if they are general war memorials to normal people rather than statues which are there to glorify an racist.

However, this is a complicated issue that should not be decided by mobs on either side - certain figures from history like Colston or Cecil Rhodes have no redeeming features that I can detect - even back in their own times they were called out as evil men by many people, and their entire lives were about exploiting other races in order to make themselves and their country rich.  Cecil Rhodes even stated in his will that his entire life had been about ensuring the superiority of the White race, or words to that effect.  However there are many other people who are more complex - figures like Winston Churchill who made some vital contributions to British history, but who also was deeply involved in some questionable and arguably unnecessary atrocities. 

Also, in my view the police should be there protecting those statues.

All history is complex, Colston was arguably a philanthropist and the other Powell guy invented the boy scouts.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/af08e2b0-c436-11e5-808f-8231cd71622e

That's about Rhodes but it applies to all of them - but they exist in every country, not just in England. Most other imperial nations would've subjugated us as badly, worse or maybe slightly more nicely than we did them - and THAT is the truth.

I don't agree with destroying the statues, they belong in a museum and our history should be fully revealed with no revisionism on ANY side. Only then might we actually learn something from it.