To the surprise of no-one...tracking app changes

[T00ts]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/nhs-coronavirus-app-covid-19-not-working-download-how-apple-iphone-android-b597174.html%3famp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-54240777

Wow they really are f**king USELESS!

The app is thought still not work fully even on the latest phones with the updated app.

Let's hear the defences for this latest clusterfuck then..

I asked my daughter if she would use it and her comment was that she is not buying a new phone just to accommodate it. How many times have governments of all flavours attempted IT projects for each one to be an abject failure? Buy cheap buy twice is a mantra in my family and it seems that Governments go for the lowest tender or whatever and get very little as a result. With the amount of money wasted it seems to me that we need some real changes in the Whitehall bargain basement dept.

I agree completely.

When you put Cummings the clueless in charge of whitehall, expect the above..

No that's hardly fair. Problems with IT go back decades no matter Labour or Conservative or Condem. It makes little difference. For some reason we are inept.  Maybe Cummings will find out why.

[Borg Refinery]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/nhs-coronavirus-app-covid-19-not-working-download-how-apple-iphone-android-b597174.html%3famp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-54240777

Wow they really are f**king USELESS!

The app is thought still not work fully even on the latest phones with the updated app.

Let's hear the defences for this latest clusterfuck then..

I asked my daughter if she would use it and her comment was that she is not buying a new phone just to accommodate it. How many times have governments of all flavours attempted IT projects for each one to be an abject failure? Buy cheap buy twice is a mantra in my family and it seems that Governments go for the lowest tender or whatever and get very little as a result. With the amount of money wasted it seems to me that we need some real changes in the Whitehall bargain basement dept.

I agree completely.

When you put Cummings the clueless in charge of whitehall, expect the above..

[Borg Refinery]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/nhs-coronavirus-app-covid-19-not-working-download-how-apple-iphone-android-b597174.html%3famp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-54240777

Wow they really are f**king USELESS!

The app is thought still not work fully even on the latest phones with the updated app.

Let's hear the defences for this latest clusterfuck then..

Today it was added that the app can't even add updates where tests are completed etc,making it 100% useless.

Even found myself agreeing with Layla Moran an evil lib dem. 

[T00ts]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/nhs-coronavirus-app-covid-19-not-working-download-how-apple-iphone-android-b597174.html%3famp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-54240777

Wow they really are f**king USELESS!

The app is thought still not work fully even on the latest phones with the updated app.

Let's hear the defences for this latest clusterfuck then..

I asked my daughter if she would use it and her comment was that she is not buying a new phone just to accommodate it. How many times have governments of all flavours attempted IT projects for each one to be an abject failure? Buy cheap buy twice is a mantra in my family and it seems that Governments go for the lowest tender or whatever and get very little as a result. With the amount of money wasted it seems to me that we need some real changes in the Whitehall bargain basement dept.

[Borg Refinery]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/nhs-coronavirus-app-covid-19-not-working-download-how-apple-iphone-android-b597174.html%3famp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-54240777

Wow they really are fucking USELESS!

The app is thought still not work fully even on the latest phones with the updated app.

Let's hear the defences for this latest clusterfuck then..

[johnofgwent]

Westminster wont grant independence. I gave you 62 examples of countries leaving the british empire where westminster didnt grant independence

I suppose you could always commence using the irish free state model for secession. Trouble is ISIS have a bit of a monopoly on killing policemen these days ...

[Thomas]

In the absence of Westminster granting independence,

Westminster wont grant independence. I gave you 62 examples of countries leaving the british empire where westminster didnt grant independence , but it still happened anyway. More than a quarter of the worlds nations.

You even said yourself that westminster wont grant indy , so what are you talking about again?

any Scottish independence would be by definition unilateral.

It would , thats how independence was largely for 62 countires who left the british empire. They were all told the same thing ( illegal , cant happen , wstminster wont let it , no one will recognise it etc etc ) and it still happened.

Its also the norm how it generally happens throughout human history.

Otherwise it's a Catalonia situation.

Nothing like catalonia.

Eventhe spanish recognised this as we discussed on the old forum ad nauseum. Spain has an indivisible constitution , the uk does not. ( ireland as an example has already left)

You keep banging on about me ignoring the British people over brexit whilst simultaneously ignoring the Scottish people who voted against independence.

You are anti democratically ignoring the "british " people. The referendum result in 2014 was implemeted , we have lived with it for 6 years .

The 2016 result hasnt been implemented , you and your ilk have anti democratically tried to stop it , and wont take your medicine. Thats the difference. Once you implement the result , which after four years still hasnt got past transition , then you can campaign to hold another ref. Thats how democracy works.

That's a bigger margin (and sample) than the poll you quoted for Scottish independence.

Well lets see.

You lost the 2015 general election , we won it ( in our country) taking 56/59 seats.

you lost the 2016 brexit referendum in england , we won it in scotland taking 62% of the vote.

You lost the 2017 general election in england , we won in scotland taking again the majority of scottish seats. You couldnt even defeat the worst conservative pm in history.

you lost 2019 european elections , where brexit supporting parties took 58 % of the vote

In England and Wales, despite the success of the Lib Dems and Greens, the overall vote share of pro-Brexit parties went up to around 58% – an increase of 6 points on the 2016 referendum result. The Brexit Party got noticeably more votes than UKIP did when winning in 2014, and UKIP also held onto a few points.

While we won again in scotland taking 62% of the vote.

...and then of course there was the big brexit election in 2019 , that you assured us the silent remain majority in your country would speak and stop brexit. what happened?

You got humped yet again , while we won in scotland.

So polls are fine to a point , but we back up our polls by winning elections while you cant win either referendums or elections.

Looking forward to the end of the year beelbeeb and the implementation of democracy that you cant stand.

Brexit must happen.!!!

[BeElBeeBub]

In the absence of Westminster granting independence, any Scottish independence would be by definition unilateral. Scotland would hope enough other countries recognised them to make it stick.  Otherwise it's a Catalonia situation.

I'm pointing out it's far from a foregone conclusion any significant ones would.  If you disagree, who do you think would?

You keep banging on about me ignoring the British people over brexit whilst simultaneously ignoring the Scottish people who voted against independence.

A pan-European poll (European Social Survey) carried out every two years found:

🇬🇧 56.8% would vote to remain - an increase from 49.9% in 2018
🇬🇧 34.9% would vote to leave
🇬🇧 8.3% would not vote at all

That's a bigger margin (and sample) than the poll you quoted for Scottish independence.

[Thomas]

How does england feel about ditching scotland to gain brexit...?




and how does scotland feel about the union?

The earth shakes as support for independence soars to 54% - the highest EVER in a Panelbase poll
So you've probably seen the headline in the Sunday National about a poll that appears to show this...

Should Scotland be an independent country?  (Panelbase)

Yes 54% (+2)
No 46% (-2)

Whatever happens , you can bet your arse it will be javert and beelbeeb who wont accept the demcratic wishes of the people  , sit in a corner crying while the rest of us get on with things regardless.

[Thomas]

You misunderstand me.

I dont misunderstand you at all beely.

You on the other hand not only misunderstand me , but the desire of your countrymen to "brexit".

I would have no objection to another ref and if the answer is "leave" for Scotland to leave.

I keep stressing this time and again beely. Its very magnanimous of you and some of your fellow countrymen when you tell us this , but in reality it is completely meaningless as you dont have a vote or say on the matter.

However, I wasn't commenting on that.

I was commenting that a conservative government is highly unlikely to grant a 2nd Indy ref.

I know exactly what you were commenting on , but you misunderstood my answer.

I replied it is irrelevant what the tory government in your country want.

62 countries have left the british empire , the vast vast majority of them without westminsters approval.

Some fought their way out , others went independent and westminster knew they had no choice but to accept , and others gradually detached themselves from westminster rule over time. In the end , the result was the same however they did it.

Westminster didnt want to lose them , but it happened anyway.

I dont think in the history of mankind a nation has normally had to ask permission of another nation to become independent. It generally happened when the people of that country wished it . The idea scotland needs englands permission to become independent is laughable nonsense no one seriously believes.

I keep streessing a section 30 order wasnt permission to hold an indyref in 2014 , it was merely an agreement to abide by the result.

In the absence of Westminster granting those powers any independence moves by scotland e.g UDI would be illegal.

Nonsense , under which law would it be illegal?

First of all , you would have to pass a law in scotland proclaiming it illegal. English law doesnt apply in my country.

Secondly , you misundertand the legal powers of a devolved parliament , and the constitutional power of a nation that is in a political agreement ie the treaty of union , with your country. We have of course been over this many a time.

I repeat again practically every country in the history of mankind has been told it was illegal to become independent ,and it happened anyway. That isnt how the world works , not to mention the fact unlike ireland and wales where english law did actually apply  , english law doesnt not and never has applied in scotland.

Your parliament governs scotland by the people of scotland consent , and we can withdraw that consent when we choose. The idea it is illegal for one half of the two kingdoms who made the treaty of union that created the uk to withdraw from that treaty is laughable.

Scotland would then have to rely on international opinion.

Well yes generally that s how most countries are recognised as independent and become part of the international community.

However England would be vigorously (again not my preferred route, just laying out what I believe a conservative government would do) oppose this.

Well i never beely. ?You and yer pal javert are sharp as a tack.

At the end of the day Westminster still has a good deal of internationally and my money is on iScot not getting recognised by the majority.

parp#

Another beelbeeb wishfull thinking political prediction , like 2015/2016/2017/2019 and december 2019 , all of which he got wrong.

With the risk outside the EU and iScot either in the EU or totally independent, there would be a border.

Which the majority of scots support.

I mean how many times again have we been over this?

According to our recent Panelbase poll, it turns out that a hard border at Berwick and Gretna is a price that Scottish voters are – by a margin of more than two to one – willing to pay to stay in the EU.

Most scottish folk dont care about a "hard border". Most english folk i would imagine are the same.

This isnt some imaginary modern border invented by the british like northern irelands border , which cuts through a country and towns.

The scot english border is like any other normal border around the world . People are used to it , its been there for over a thousand years. Most scots and most english never go anywhere near it.

A pissed off uncooperative rUK could make that border very hard which would be 3conokically disastrous for iScot (and rUK - but much more so for iScot).

This is just a re run of your brexit argument beely. This is what you told your fellow english about the eu doing if england voted out , and what happened?

You had your fellow english running to the polling booth to vote out.

You never learn.

England if i remember did the same to ireland after irish independence. Remind me , how did that work out for the union?

Again none of the above is my wish, I am just laying out what I believe a conservative government faced with UDI Scotland would do. 

No one has mentioned UDI except you. You  , and you alone brought it into the debate. I repeat , the snp havent suggested going down the UDI route at presentas they have absolutely no need to as many other routes havent even been explored yet never mind attempted.

You havent even established the legal principle that scotland constitutionally needs englands persmission to end the treaty of union never mind anything else , so what are you talking about ?

The only route I can see for an independent Scotland would be for labour to become an effective opposition (and I admit that is a long shot at the moment, but every journey etc). Maybe then, in exchange for SNP support a 2 ref and independent Scotland might be on the cards.

Well that isnt going to happen as starmer has already ruled it out categorically , so again what are you talking about?

I would love starmer to accept snp support , it would absolutely kill the labour party in england forever more. If they were that stupid to accept snp support , i would feckin love it. I would be putting the boot into labour from now till eternity , not to mention how the english people would despise them .

So froth and foam all you like.

No one is frothing and faoming except you anti democratic remainers in england who can't accept your brexit medicine  , and as we approach the latest brexit cliff edge , you are again getting hysterical.

I'm simply pointing out my belief that brexit harms Scotland as much, if not more than England, which is very unfair given Scotland's desire to remain

.

It is , and its such a shame isnt it?


Brexit though has to happen ,as most of us except you recognise.

It appalls my sense of democracy that folk like you have stood for four years and counting refusing to accept the democratic will of the people. You are the enemy of every ordinary normal citizen of these disunited kingdoms.

Democracy isnt something you pick and choose to accpet when it runs in your favour , which is why brexit must happen as i have told you for four years.

However, I wouldn't underestimate the ability of the current lot to simple deny it and swallow the hypocrisy as that is very much their brand.

Yawn.

Boris and his lot are in power simply because people like you couldnt accept the will of the people .

When scotland becomes indy , it wont be the tories bleating forevermore. It will be folk like you and your pal javert refusing to accept the will of the people as you are anti democrats.

The tories in scotland will revert to type and take advantage of scottish indy , and become more scottish than the snp while labour and the liberals spend eternity bleating about losing a referendum.

[BeElBeeBub]

Your anti democratic credentials shine though as ever beely.

You smile with glee as you tell me westminster wont allow "managed departure" by refusing an indy ref , and then you smile as you tell me scotland cannot U.D .I. In effect , you laugh as you lock us up and throw away the key.

Why am i not surprised though beely? What else would we expect from you , the person who has point blank refused to accept the democratic wishes of your fellow countrymen who voted by majority in a legitimate referendum four years ago to leave the eu.

I think your opinion on democracy in my country can safely be dismissed as irrelevant.

You misunderstand me.

Personally, I think Scotland should have the right to go independent of it wants to. I would have no objection to another ref and if the answer is "leave" for Scotland to leave.

I think a 2nd ref(*) would be very justified given a major argument for "no" was EU membership.  Brexit represents a big change in circumstances.

I even understand the desire for Scotland to do so.

If I was Scottish I would seriously consider voting "leave the UK"

However, I wasn't commenting on that.

I was commenting that a conservative government is highly unlikely to grant a 2nd Indy ref.

In the absence of Westminster granting those powers any independence moves by scotland e.g UDI would be illegal. Scotland would then have to rely on international opinion.  If most of the world recognised iScot it might stick.  However England would be vigorously (again not my preferred route, just laying out what I believe a conservative government would do) oppose this.  At the end of the day Westminster still has a good deal of internationally and my money is on iScot not getting recognised by the majority.  It's possible the EU might do so, but unlikely as England is still the more important partner to keep on side (economically, diplomatically, militarily etc).

So iScot would be isolated.  There is also the practical consideration.  The border and trade sotuation where both iScot and rUK were both in the EU would be workable. The border would be like a Schengen or NI/RoI border.  With the risk outside the EU and iScot either in the EU or totally independent, there would be a border. A pissed off uncooperative rUK could make that border very hard which would be 3conokically disastrous for iScot (and rUK - but much more so for iScot). 

Again none of the above is my wish, I am just laying out what I believe a conservative government faced with UDI Scotland would do. 

The only route I can see for an independent Scotland would be for labour to become an effective opposition (and I admit that is a long shot at the moment, but every journey etc). Maybe then, in exchange for SNP support a 2 ref and independent Scotland might be on the cards.

So froth and foam all you like. I'm simply pointing out my belief that brexit harms Scotland as much, if not more than England, which is very unfair given Scotland's desire to remain.

(*) The caveat being the procedure should be very much bete thought out than the brexit vote. A choice between the status quo and a properly defined exit as well as a final say referendum.  Don't repeat the screw ups of the brexit referendum.

Addendum:

One option I can see would be if the SNP were able to hold an advisory and non-binding referendum. I have no idea if they have the lower to do so, but as it is non-binding, Incan see the hurdles would be less

Of course, once the result of such a "non-binding" referendum is found, it can then be routed as the unstoppable "will of the people", and that would be difficult for the conservatives to deny as it is the exact same route they traveled

However, I wouldn't underestimate the ability of the current lot to simple deny it and swallow the hypocrisy as that is very much their brand.

[Thomas]

Labour has that many factions that it is constantly fighting a civil war within it's self. R.L.B get's the boot and the Corbynites openly criticise the Blairites, how are the members supposed to vote for a party that is that polarised? Excluding Brexit the Conservatives don't have this, they pretty much all sing from the same song sheet.

Totally agree nick. Did you see the blairites wheeled out milliband to defend the purge of the left within the party over the long bailey affair? This is them getting even after the corbynites purged the blairites over the last five years.

It doesnt actually occur to them neither the blairites or corbynites are acceptable to the public.

As i have said many a time , a party bereft of vision fighting like rats in a sack.

[Thomas]

If the people of Scotland started to see Labour as a trustworthy party that would be a disaster for the SNP

But they don't, which is why they voted SNP.

Not a bad lad Javert, but he tends to be a couple of days behind everyone else.

Its the big dream in javerts muddled mind borkie , about england and scotland rejecting the nasty snp and tories , forgetting brexit , and all joining hands singing kum by ya holding aloft BLM banners while voting in labour.

[Thomas]

The only way Scotland is going independent is via a managed departure.

Your anti democratic credentials shine though as ever beely.

You smile with glee as you tell me westminster wont allow "managed departure" by refusing an indy ref , and then you smile as you tell me scotland cannot U.D .I. In effect , you laugh as you lock us up and throw away the key.

Why am i not surprised though beely? What else would we expect from you , the person who has point blank refused to accept the democratic wishes of your fellow countrymen who voted by majority in a legitimate referendum four years ago to leave the eu.

I think your opinion on democracy in my country can safely be dismissed as irrelevant.

A unilateral declaration of independence ain't going to fly.

Possibly , and as yet i dont see my government proposing this. However , your country has form in accepting U.D .I when it suits when they supported kosovos right to U.D.I.

Following the war, there Kosovo remained legally a Serbian province but under UN administration for nine years. In 2008 its leaders issued a unilateral declaration of independence (UDI) from Serbia, whose legality is now being tested before the International Court of Justice (the ICJ), a group of fifteen most eminent international jurists in the world and the principal judicial organ of the United Nations. The UK was one of the first states to recognise Kosovo's independence

Again though , your opinion as an anti democrat doesnt matter. Legitimate , acceptable or democratic , you have shown you wont accept any change to the status quo your desperately cling to.

You're in a bubble if you think Scotland is going to be indepen

Unlike you over the last four elections and a referendum  with your anti democratic brexit stance, we carry the majority of support and can manage to get a party that represents our interests into government.....

Nope, unsupported their initial moves.

I started to lose confidence around Cheltenham.  The pub closure debacle knocked a bit more and by the time we (finally) locked down I was back to square 1.

How magnanimous of you beely.

Im sure everyone on the forum is convinced of your argument.

[Nick]

The vast majority of the 62 nations that were part of the empire werent given an indy ref , they took independence.

You are correct, but having worked in a lot of African countries, Uganda being a prime example, the people are begging for a return to the Imperial days. The level of abuse and corruption within the country is off the scale. This is not hearsay, I have been told this countless times whilst in Kampala and Entebbe.