Killing of PC Harper

[patman post]

There was a case last year in the US when a group of teenagers drove to another suburb in a stolen car in order to steal an Audi, and one of them was shot by the Audi's owner.
The teenager died and the Police arrested the rest of teenagers and charged them with first degree murder "due to them being in commission of a forcible felony".

In Illinois, felony murder law allows prosecutors to charge a perpetrator with murder if someone dies while the felony is committed.

Why isn't that the law in the UK...?
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/car-owner-kills-teen-suspect-during-attempted-theft-five-other-n1042786

[johnofgwent]

What defence did they run against the murder charge?

I guess it would have hinged on "intent" - they must have claimed that they didn't know the police officer was being pulled behind the car, or that they he was hanging on by his own choice rather than unable to free himself?

I think both those statements were made, both that they had no idea he was in this predicament, and that they had no intent to kill him in the course of making their escape. I',m often puzzled by legal arguments as to the niceties of the distinction, as in the distant past it seemed that a murder conviction required BOTH an intent to kill, AND premeditation and planning, but cases over the past 20 years or so seem to have alower standard of proof when the state deems it handy ...

[cromwell]

And do you support that?

I would understand it, unless the perpetrators cocky attitude changes.

Well I wouldn't,therein lies further lawlessness.

[papasmurf]

And do you support that?

I would understand it, unless the perpetrators cocky attitude changes.

[cromwell]

Well if by that you are suggesting that vigilantes may act

I would be vary surprised if they didn't.

And do you support that?

[papasmurf]

Well if by that you are suggesting that vigilantes may act

I would be vary surprised if they didn't.

[cromwell]

But that doesn't stop me hoping that they each get what they deserve — whatever that may turn out to be...

Well where all three live is known and the press has published photos.

Well if by that you are suggesting that vigilantes may act then they are as criminal as any and not the answer,the press only wish to sell newspapers.

[patman post]

But that doesn't stop me hoping that they each get what they deserve — whatever that may turn out to be...

Well where all three live is known and the press has published photos.

No, you misunderstand me. I meant that I hope the sentence takes full account of the circumstances any any abuse and/or deprivation they suffered during childhood as I understand children in Traveller communities are frequently such victims...
https://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/news/2020/02/gypsy-roma-and-traveller-victims-asked-share-experiences-child-sexual-abuse-inquiry

[papasmurf]

But that doesn't stop me hoping that they each get what they deserve — whatever that may turn out to be...

Well where all three live is known and the press has published photos.

[patman post]

but without the full trial transcript and evidence we can't really know what was going on there.

That seems to be the sensible  the way to regard most comments about hearings, inquiries or trials posted on on forums. It's only afterwards, when the judgments are made and the transcripts are picked over, that we can really form valid opinions.
But that doesn't stop me hoping that they each get what they deserve — whatever that may turn out to be...

[Javert]

It would, (whether we like it or not,) be very difficult in this case to prove intent.

Maybe depending on the defence, but under UK case law intent appears to include:

The necessary intention exists if the defendant feels sure that death, or serious bodily harm, is a virtual certainty as a result of the defendant's actions and that the defendant appreciated that this was the case - R v Matthews (Darren John) [2003] EWCA Crim 192.

This would appear to mean that if they knew that the PC was being pulled behind the car at speed, and was unable to free himself, you could make an argument for intent under UK law.  I suspect they argued that they didn't know he was there, but without the full trial transcript and evidence we can't really know what was going on there.

[papasmurf]

I think premeditation is more of a US thing.  In the UK you don't have to show premeditation or planning for murder, but you have to show "intent", which doesn't necessarily have to be planned in advance.

It would, (whether we like it or not,) be very difficult in this case to prove intent.

[Javert]

There was no premeditation for start. The driver pleaded guilty to manslaughter. (Which perversely mean the other two could get longer sentences.)

I think premeditation is more of a US thing.  In the UK you don't have to show premeditation or planning for murder, but you have to show "intent", which doesn't necessarily have to be planned in advance.

[srb7677]

This sort of low life lacks the public spirit to bother voting. I've known some low life criminal types in my time and not a single one has ever been public spirited enough to ever bother. One thing I very much doubt they'll ever be doing is voting.

I doubt if they are on the electoral register.

Indeed. Such types almost never are.

[papasmurf]

This sort of low life lacks the public spirit to bother voting. I've known some low life criminal types in my time and not a single one has ever been public spirited enough to ever bother. One thing I very much doubt they'll ever be doing is voting.

I doubt if they are on the electoral register.