Half competent, hateable leader - Dynamis

[papasmurf]

perhaps your MP doesn't yet have the resources up to speed. I think we should all show a bit of patience.

I have no patience with the man. Born and bred here but has no idea about the local problems mainly caused by his government.

[T00ts]

I would like to see anyone else do substantially better. I am sure there are many in Westminster counting their lucky stars to have avoided the hot seats. Every Minister I see on TV looks shattered even after the latest 'break'.

The Tory MP here seems to have disappeared. No letters or emails replied to no phone calls answered, there is a lot of grumbling about it.

I think there is a similar reaction from everyone in every sector at the moment. Things have definitely slowed right down so perhaps your MP doesn't yet have the resources up to speed. I think we should all show a bit of patience.

[papasmurf]

I would like to see anyone else do substantially better. I am sure there are many in Westminster counting their lucky stars to have avoided the hot seats. Every Minister I see on TV looks shattered even after the latest 'break'.

The Tory MP here seems to have disappeared. No letters or emails replied to no phone calls answered, there is a lot of grumbling about it.

[T00ts]

Over last few months, even the Daily Mail have had it in for the Tories. And with good reason. Virtually everything this government have had any contact with since January has gone tits up

It would be funny if it weren't so damaging to the whole country

Geordie Greig, who is a remainer and the editor of the Daily Mail and has never made any secret of his dislike of the current Tory government.

The government hasn't had much to do since January. We will be out of the EU by the New Year and that is what they were elected for. There was an outbreak of the flu earlier in the year and the media and a few folk ran around making a fuss over not very much and made the rest of us even less that they were British, but other than that I reckon that the government has done pretty well.

I would like to see anyone else do substantially better. I am sure there are many in Westminster counting their lucky stars to have avoided the hot seats. Every Minister I see on TV looks shattered even after the latest 'break'.

[Borchester]

Over last few months, even the Daily Mail have had it in for the Tories. And with good reason. Virtually everything this government have had any contact with since January has gone tits up

It would be funny if it weren't so damaging to the whole country

Geordie Greig, who is a remainer and the editor of the Daily Mail and has never made any secret of his dislike of the current Tory government.

The government hasn't had much to do since January. We will be out of the EU by the New Year and that is what they were elected for. There was an outbreak of the flu earlier in the year and the media and a few folk ran around making a fuss over not very much and made the rest of us ashamed they were British, but other than that I reckon that the government has done pretty well.

[T00ts]

Over last few months, even the Daily Mail have had it in for the Tories. And with good reason. Virtually everything this government have had any contact with since January has gone tits up

It would be funny if it weren't so damaging to the whole country

I would agree. The trouble is that trying to remain flexible in constantly changing circumstances is making a fool of us. The latest fiasco of holiday makers expecting to have to rush home and some doing so, to find that they could have stayed is an example. Somewhere the Government is leaking like a sieve. It isn't helpful to anyone for ideas/possible plans to be leaked before decisions are made. It is leading to chaos. Again I suspect underhand workings in Whitehall.

It is undermining confidence to the point that no-one trusts anything that Ministers say. It makes Government an impossible task and I can't help but suspect an agenda.

I would find it hard to support any Tory government on offer in recent times. But I think the biggest problem with this one , is the reason it actually found power. People wanted to resolve Brexit to such a degree they boosted the base vote by voting for what was essentially nothing more than a faction. All other reasoning disappeared for many.  It's the parties own fault without doubt for embracing Boris, and the brexit crew to such a degree that the party is now in the hands of a man with Cummings  hand up his back. Yes they delivered Brexit, the price being , them  increasingly out of their depth now.
Many of the so called leaks are government inspired, merely testing the water for a possible change of course. A reflection of how unsure they actually are.

I would agree that Brexit was the only issue. The whole country was annoyed at the chaos in Westminster and the battle charge on democracy and this the one way to knock that and the dissenting MPs on the head. I don't think we can blame the electorate for determining decisive action by way of punishment to those prepared to spit on a democratic vote.

The disaster of Covid I think has been the wrecking ball though. The focus was on expansion, of infrastructure improvements to take us forward ready for the freedom from the EU but sadly Covid crept in by the back door and the airports before No10 managed to refocus. No-one recognised the importance of Wuhan and I am sure that they thought that like others diseases it would stay East. They forgot that sickness can be flown very quickly into the Country. A very disappointing lack of forethought and joined up thinking. I wonder which and how many Ministerial depts in Whitehall were responsible for that massive failure? I would refer to complacency again, sitting in armchairs supping coffee or something stronger rather than using intelligent thought.

[Good old]

Over last few months, even the Daily Mail have had it in for the Tories. And with good reason. Virtually everything this government have had any contact with since January has gone tits up

It would be funny if it weren't so damaging to the whole country

I would agree. The trouble is that trying to remain flexible in constantly changing circumstances is making a fool of us. The latest fiasco of holiday makers expecting to have to rush home and some doing so, to find that they could have stayed is an example. Somewhere the Government is leaking like a sieve. It isn't helpful to anyone for ideas/possible plans to be leaked before decisions are made. It is leading to chaos. Again I suspect underhand workings in Whitehall.

It is undermining confidence to the point that no-one trusts anything that Ministers say. It makes Government an impossible task and I can't help but suspect an agenda.

I would find it hard to support any Tory government on offer in recent times. But I think the biggest problem with this one , is the reason it actually found power. People wanted to resolve Brexit to such a degree they boosted the base vote by voting for what was essentially nothing more than a faction. All other reasoning disappeared for many.  It's the parties own fault without doubt for embracing Boris, and the brexit crew to such a degree that the party is now in the hands of a man with Cummings  hand up his back. Yes they delivered Brexit, the price being , them  increasingly out of their depth now.
Many of the so called leaks are government inspired, merely testing the water for a possible change of course. A reflection of how unsure they actually are.

[papasmurf]

All commendable suggestions for our Utopian hopes, but how will they get us out of an economic black hole? Surely these are spending projects and we need to earn before we can spend. What ideas are there to increase our profits going forward so that we can invest?

Then there is cancelling now white elephant projects like HS2.
Then collecting the evaded and "avoided" tax offshored abroad, time limited amnesty for handing it in followed by Draconian enforcement.

[T00ts]

Ok I'll buy it. What 'socialist' policies do you suggest will help the country out of the black hole? The only socialist policies that strike me are the ones that equate to giving a man a fish but not teaching him how to catch one for tomorrow. In other words encouraging dependency on the State. Now this is good for buying votes but takes away self reliance and self motivation and self worth. There are too many who justifiably need our help but when we spread the pot so wide it leaves everyone short so that no-one thrives.

What do you see as the answer?

Council House building program,  it will probably need the nationalising of several industries and utilities if only for a limited time.
The negotiating of seamless trade with the EU whether anyone likes it or not.
Taking the NHS back in house with no subcontractors.
Total reform of the DWP.
No trade deal with America or anyone else that involves a Investor State Dispute Settlement clause.
Keep a long way away from the WTO.
That is just a few examples.

All commendable suggestions for our Utopian hopes, but how will they get us out of an economic black hole? Surely these are spending projects and we need to earn before we can spend. What ideas are there to increase our profits going forward so that we can invest?

[papasmurf]

Over last few months, even the Daily Mail have had it in for the Tories. And with good reason. Virtually everything this government have had any contact with since January has gone tits up

It would be funny if it weren't so damaging to the whole country

Quite, something must be very badly wrong when the Daily Heil puts  the boot into the Tories.
It does however seem to have missed this scandal:-

https://evolvepolitics.com/boris-johnson-is-putting-an-unashamed-ira-sympathiser-into-the-house-of-lords-and-the-right-wing-media-are-totally-silent/

BORIS JOHNSON IS PUTTING AN UNASHAMED IRA SYMPATHISER INTO THE HOUSE OF LORDS – AND THE RIGHT-WING MEDIA ARE TOTALLY SILENT
BY TOM D. ROGERS -3RD SEPTEMBER 2020


However, perhaps owing to the overtly ridiculous nature of so many of the PM's nominations, one name which seemed to slip almost completely under the radar at the time was that of the relatively unknown Brexit Party MEP, Claire Fox.
Fox's political evolution is particularly interesting. Before becoming an MEP for the right-wing Brexit Party, Fox was a senior organiser for the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP), as well as a member of the Irish Freedom Movement (IFM).

Fox was involved with both groups during The Troubles – a time in which they overtly supported violence carried out by the IRA.

Following the 1993 Warrington bombing – which killed two children, Tim Parry and Johnathan Ball – the RCP responded by condoning the killings, writing in their newsletter that it was "the right of the Irish people to take whatever measures necessary in their struggle for freedom".

[Borg Refinery]

Over last few months, even the Daily Mail have had it in for the Tories. And with good reason. Virtually everything this government have had any contact with since January has gone tits up

It would be funny if it weren't so damaging to the whole country

If you don't laugh about it you'll go insane, so we really have no choice..mind you I already was. I suspect most on here are.

Who knows anymore... who knows....

[T00ts]

Over last few months, even the Daily Mail have had it in for the Tories. And with good reason. Virtually everything this government have had any contact with since January has gone tits up

It would be funny if it weren't so damaging to the whole country

I would agree. The trouble is that trying to remain flexible in constantly changing circumstances is making a fool of us. The latest fiasco of holiday makers expecting to have to rush home and some doing so, to find that they could have stayed is an example. Somewhere the Government is leaking like a sieve. It isn't helpful to anyone for ideas/possible plans to be leaked before decisions are made. It is leading to chaos. Again I suspect underhand workings in Whitehall.

It is undermining confidence to the point that no-one trusts anything that Ministers say. It makes Government an impossible task and I can't help but suspect an agenda.

[DeppityDawg]

Over last few months, even the Daily Mail have had it in for the Tories. And with good reason. Virtually everything this government have had any contact with since January has gone tits up

It would be funny if it weren't so damaging to the whole country

[papasmurf]

Ok I'll buy it. What 'socialist' policies do you suggest will help the country out of the black hole? The only socialist policies that strike me are the ones that equate to giving a man a fish but not teaching him how to catch one for tomorrow. In other words encouraging dependency on the State. Now this is good for buying votes but takes away self reliance and self motivation and self worth. There are too many who justifiably need our help but when we spread the pot so wide it leaves everyone short so that no-one thrives.

What do you see as the answer?

Council House building program,  it will probably need the nationalising of several industries and utilities if only for a limited time.
The negotiating of seamless trade with the EU whether anyone likes it or not.
Taking the NHS back in house with no subcontractors.
Total reform of the DWP.
No trade deal with America or anyone else that involves a Investor State Dispute Settlement clause.
Keep a long way away from the WTO.
That is just a few examples.

[T00ts]

I hope Dynamis will forgive me for stealing his line. The full quote I was struck by was:-

'Not sure why the Tories can't stick a half competent, if hateable leader in' I started a reply and could see myself going a bit off piste so thought it was worthy of a new thread.

BJ was, in my view,  made leader of the Conservative party to do just one job. He was the only one to really commit to getting us out of the EU. I would be surprised if there are many who think he is the right leader for much else. The choice was pretty dire and the final two a no brainer. Hunt would never have coped he lacks dynamism and was possibly too concerned about his likeable image. BJ had the impression of being able to ride a bit more roughshod where necessary. Sadly Covid has apparently removed his edge. In fact I think with the current organisation in Whitehall, that has evolved over different parties in power, we have gradually inherited the worst possible scenario and much as I question Cummings (and I know his reported short comings - no pun intended) I hope that there is radical change in the way Whitehall is run, making it efficient and forward looking.

I have long bemoaned the lack of real talent in Westminster. We are apparently not breeding statesmen any longer - perhaps the strong left wing influence in education is taking its toll. I have not been able to find a half competent, likeable or hateable candidate on any of the green benches for some time. Is it their fault or the slow hide bound, fixed in tradition and hierarchy of the various ministries that is hogtying any real progress?

My vote is that perhaps it is. Tradition is great in many ways, but the world is moving fast. We have been in a supporting role for so long ruled by EU votes that we have forgotten what it is really like to drive selfishly. This might sound bad but anyone who has run a business knows that there are times when decisions are made for survival which seem selfish at the time, but survival is essential for those employed as much as for the owner. This is what is missing in UK plc. Sorry Thomas I include Scotland until you decide otherwise.

If we are to survive Covid19 and Brexit we need to up our game. We cannot do that without making changes at a really basic level. That starts in Whitehall and extends to the complacency on all sides of Westminster.

Feel free to expand on it or anything else.

I can agree with the gist of your post re a good leader... but obviously I feel whitehall needs impartiality, competency and dedicated civil servants. IMHO Cummings hired eugenicists and 'weirdoes' to fill the gap. One can come to their own conclusions bout that..

I think selflessness is what's needed here, what goes around comes around and a true leader who loves his country is in fact quite selfless, but I think you're saying that in a way - yiu're saying he should sacrifice popularity to get the job done. That is quite selfless.

I think they should stick Javid in - he showed some moral fortitude and selflessness - and is competent.

..Even if he is an evil Tory who looks like nosferatu. =-P He's the best of em' imho.

Yes you are probably right in what you say here. Selfless personally but we need to be more hardcore nationally. Javid? No! He flies both sides. Again far too image conscious for these times. He would be pulled in both directions depending who had his ear. I agree BJ has also been like this - more of late - but then I think his thinking processes are impaired on several fronts. New fatherhood and screaming nights. A partner with issues about her future and of course Covid. A man under extreme pressure on too many fronts, but then no-one could have told the future.