But wait the EU is just a trade body

[Thomas]

author=GerryT link=topic=1827.msg38980#msg38980 date=1600707029]

First I do know the SOS role. The SOS can't just call for a border poll, he has to first determine if there is a majority in NI that want reunifacation, there is debate how that would be satisfied.

You are talking rubbish. You said the people of northern ireland would decide , and i pointed out technically its the sos for ni who decides.

Your pal doggy and i went over this last year.

There has been polls showing a majority for reunification now for a couple of years , and yet the sos for ni hasnt called a border poll as the platform leading to calling a border poll in the GFA is vague and meaningless.

As conor  pointed out on the old forum ,  and the brendan heading article i quoted , essentially its down to the sos for ni to make the call ,not the ni people as you suggested , and johnson could instruct his sos for ni at any time to call a border poll if he so wished.

What I've said to you is there is no provision in the GFA that if a border poll returned a decision to stay then a border would go up.

There is also no provision to say in light of brexit ( twenty years after the GFA was signed) a border wouldnt go up in light of the new uk situation regarding the eu.

Im simply saying if this causes the eu and uk difficulty regarding ni , then a border poll to resolve the situation is the obvious answer , and shuts up all dissent one way or the other. Exccept you anti democratic remainers of course.

What your talking about is nothing to do with the GFA.

The GFA has been supersceded by brexit. When it was signed , both the uk and ireland were in the eu and the signatories never envisaged a time when either side would be out of the eu. Thats day is approaching , so deal with it.

As barry said to you on another thread , one minute you argue treaties are inviolate when it suits , the next  , you bend them when you want.

Northern ireland is at the mercy of the uk and eu , and whatever they , either or both , decide will happen.

You are merely a small tool in the fight between larger sparring partners.

We can't loose in the long term.

totally agree.

You no understandy gerry.

Thats exactly my argument....why let a place like northern ireland cause any small issues for the uk leaving the eu when eventually it wont be part of the uk anyway?

Ditch it now johnson.!!!

The GFA is a international treaty, this is and has always been a UK problem.

and all nations have a right to withdraw from an international treaty.

How many international treaties have ireland either reneged on , or withdrawn from over the centuries?

The treaty of windsor 1175?

The treaty of limerick 1537?

The act of 1587?

The two treaties of limerick in 1691?

The treaty of union , and subsequent acts 1801?

Need i go on gerry?

Stop talking shite about breaking international treaties as ireland , the same as many other nations , has broken more international treaties than i have had hot dinners.

[GerryT]

The NI vote on the Irish Protocol has the option to be called every 4 years.
Unless the EU play silly buggers I doubt it will get voted on any more than unification with EIRE does every 7 years.

That's an interesting point. Every 4 (or 8 see below link) yrs there is a vote to continue the NI protocol within the WA. If passed then life goes on. If it doesn't pass then the NI protocol is in the bin, and it's back to the joint committee to come up with a new way of doing things, but as the link below says any new agreement must honour the GFA and make sure there is no border on the island of IRL.
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/northern-ireland-protocol-consent-mechanism
But what it does mean is NI will have the envious position of being inside the UK and EU at the same time. This will bring investment which is greaty needed for the region, which will hopefully spill into ROI.

[Sheepy]

I make no excuses for the British Empire it wasn't a pretence but if Irish freedom which is the democratic given right of all free people is cheap then fine, but don't lecture me from Dublin when you sit there happily selling your own people down the river. Which you are in complete denial about.

Quite the opposite, what i'm saying is the people in NI can take as long as they want, they just have to ignore brexit and when they decide to have a vote on reunification then they can do it, in their own time. There is no reason NI should consider having a vote just because Johnson is an idiot.

Anyway, what would a vote do, even if the nationalist population lost, all that would happen is NI would stay as it is. That is in the UK and UK CU and also under the WA and GFA it could in 7 yrs have a second vote, and another 7 years another vote, for ever and ever. Meanwhile NI will be aligned with the EU. That's what Johnson signed the UK up to, why didn't the opposition call this out. WHy did the press get behind Johnson and hail this as a win for the UK. So many questions and nobody in the UK is asking them. All the UK want's to do is the normal, blame the EU and leave a liar in charge. You get what you vote for.

Go off on all the tangents you like Gerry, I just tell you how it is,

[Baff]

They have. EIRE's bill went up.
It is now a net tax payer too.

[Nick]

the more you pay

When one of the top contributors bails out you pay more regardless of how your economy is doing. Can't wait for the revised contributions to come out, they might have already.

[Baff]

There's no mention of a border in the Irish Sea in the Irish Protocol or the WA.
Why do you feel the UK has agreed to this?

Nothing stay the same. Nothing.

If a poll was held ,  it would be on the provision a hard border goes up if they vote to remain in the uk , and total brexit with the uk.

It would pull the rug right our from under you anglo remainers , and europhiles .

Your wrong. The vote is reunification. That's it. The WA also has a provision to hold a vote every 7 yrs, proving your interpretation is wrong. Every 7 yrs NI gets to vote for reunification, until it's passed and that's the end to voting forever,

Now your prob wondering what idiot in the UK signed up to that one.

The GFA was brokered to protect the then minority nationalists. Hope its starting to make sense, you can't vote to join the UK when your a part of the UK, that doesn't make sense. Also you can't vote to do away with a provision in the GFA that protects a minority, that would be a self defeating argument

The NI vote on the Irish Protocol has the option to be called every 4 years.
Unless the EU play silly buggers I doubt it will get voted on any more than unification with EIRE does every 7 years.

[GerryT]

im wrong?
Gerry , you are the only so called irishman in the history of this earth who can't spell the irish word "craic" automatically without thinking about it.
You didnt know the GFA stipulates the uk sos forNi calls the vote.
...and here you are trying and failing to mumble to me something you read about the GFA on wikipedia. Stop it noo gerry.

First I do know the SOS role. The SOS can't just call for a border poll, he has to first determine if there is a majority in NI that want reunifacation, there is debate how that would be satisfied. Some say it would involve a test to see if there were a majority in both nationalist and unionist communities as the GFA is a bit wolly. But it's not whenever the SOO thinks it might help out Johnson.

and who has said this? Twice now you have delberately twisted what i said.
heres what i said to you..
Quote (selected)
If a poll was held ,  it would be on the provision a hard border goes up if they vote to remain in the uk , and total brexit with the uk.
do you see the word "remain" in that sentence gerry?
Quite a bit of a different meaning to join isnt it?

What I've said to you is there is no provision in the GFA that if a border poll returned a decision to stay then a border would go up. WHat's in the GFA is the option to continue to hold border polls until the decision to reunite is made, then the voting stops. Your trying to invent something that doesn't exist to get the UK out of the crap hole it finds intself in. Causing it to threaten to break international law. What your talking about is nothing to do with the GFA. WHat you want is a vote to stay leave and if stay is decided then a border would go up. That would be in violation of the GFA which was put in place to protect the minority nationalist community in 1998.
Why else do you think ROI had a referendum to withdraw it's right to NI, we only did that because we knew the GFA was rigged in our favour, we had house rules. It's like playing doubles or quits, except when we win it is quits. We can't loose in the long term.

Which provision would that be gerry?
The GFA was signed when both the uk and ireland were in the eu. That  has now changed , so northern ireland will have to choose what it wants to do. It cannot stay in the uk and the eu at the same time , and the uk government is currently rectifying this .
I think they said by the end of october didnt they?

No thats where your very wrong. The GFA is a international treaty, this is and has always been a UK problem. One for the UK to solve, thats been said to the UK since 2016. The solution that the UK signed up to AFTER it decided to leave and it was the final step before the UK did leave (its gone you know) was signing the WA. That reinforces the GFA, it has a N protocol section. And it's why the UK agreed to putting up a border in the Irish sea.

[Thomas]

Brexit Countdown
Counting down to the end of the Transition Period

https://daystobrexit.co.uk/

[Thomas]

Your wrong. The vote is reunification. That's it. The WA also has a provision to hold a vote every 7 yrs, proving your interpretation is wrong. Every 7 yrs NI gets to vote for reunification, until it's passed and that's the end to voting forever,

im wrong?

Gerry , you are the only so called irishman in the history of this earth who cant spell the irish word "craic" automatically without thinking about it.

You didnt know the GFA stipulates the uk sos forNi calls the vote.

...and here you are trying and failing to mumble to me something you read about the GFA on wikipedia. Stop it noo gerry.

you can't vote to join the UK when your a part of the UK

and who has said this? Twice now you have delberately twisted what i said.

heres what i said to you..

If a poll was held ,  it would be on the provision a hard border goes up if they vote to remain in the uk , and total brexit with the uk.

do you see the word "remain" in that sentence gerry?

Quite a bit of a different meaning to join isnt it?

Also you can't vote to do away with a provision in the GFA that protects a

Which provision would that be gerry?

TheGFA was signed when both the uk and ireland were in the eu. That  has now changed , so northern ireland will have to choose what it wants to do. It cannot stay in the uk and the eu at the same time , and the uk government is currently rectifying this .

I think they said by the end of october didnt they?

[GerryT]

Nothing stay the same. Nothing.

If a poll was held ,  it would be on the provision a hard border goes up if they vote to remain in the uk , and total brexit with the uk.

It would pull the rug right our from under you anglo remainers , and europhiles .

Your wrong. The vote is reunification. That's it. The WA also has a provision to hold a vote every 7 yrs, proving your interpretation is wrong. Every 7 yrs NI gets to vote for reunification, until it's passed and that's the end to voting forever,

Now your prob wondering what idiot in the UK signed up to that one.

The GFA was brokered to protect the then minority nationalists. Hope its starting to make sense, you can't vote to join the UK when your a part of the UK, that doesn't make sense. Also you can't vote to do away with a provision in the GFA that protects a minority, that would be a self defeating argument

[Thomas]

Quite the opposite, what i'm saying is the people in NI can take as long as they want, they just have to ignore brexit and when they decide to have a vote on reunification then they can do it, in their own time.

The more i think about it a border poll look ever mor appealing to shut you anglo remainers up.

Anyway, what would a vote do, even if the nationalist population lost, all that would happen is NI would stay as it is

Nothing stay the same. Nothing.

If a poll was held ,  it would be on the provision a hard border goes up if they vote to remain in the uk , and total brexit with the uk.

It would pull the rug right our from under you anglo remainers , and europhiles .

[GerryT]

I make no excuses for the British Empire it wasn't a pretence but if Irish freedom which is the democratic given right of all free people is cheap then fine, but don't lecture me from Dublin when you sit there happily selling your own people down the river. Which you are in complete denial about.

Quite the opposite, what i'm saying is the people in NI can take as long as they want, they just have to ignore brexit and when they decide to have a vote on reunification then they can do it, in their own time. There is no reason NI should consider having a vote just because Johnson is an idiot.

Anyway, what would a vote do, even if the nationalist population lost, all that would happen is NI would stay as it is. That is in the UK and UK CU and also under the WA and GFA it could in 7 yrs have a second vote, and another 7 years another vote, for ever and ever. Meanwhile NI will be aligned with the EU. That's what Johnson signed the UK up to, why didn't the opposition call this out. WHy did the press get behind Johnson and hail this as a win for the UK. So many questions and nobody in the UK is asking them. All the UK want's to do is the normal, blame the EU and leave a liar in charge. You get what you vote for.

[Stevlin]

Well it did really, it pretended it was right to do the savage things it did. It pretended that taking what wasn't yours was honourable.

Of course it did....that was what  imperialists did, and had done since long time past. It started with tribes conquering other tribes...and it isn't as if it was  only the British that had an empire is it? .. What about Spain, and France et al? However, the British themselves were extremely instrumental in STOPPING the slave trade.
[quote}
What lies has the EU come up with, now your starting to make it up to suit your agenda. The EU is transparent, it goes where the 27 want to go. There is no "EU" controlling things, it is the 27. It's fully democratic in the truest meaning of the word. Fully elected parliament constantly being re-elect, a council where the heads of each countries govt sits and a commissioner appointed by your PM.[/quote] Just like yourself - they constantly lie about being democratic -- when the EU Executive is APPOINTED, not ELECTED.

I think what the UK would have liked would be if the council only had UK/France/Germany/Italy at the table, how dare the little countries sit at the table. The UK doesn't do joint decisions, you only have to look at the UK union and a dominant, aggressive, untrustworthy England controlling everything....for now.

Oh you poor wee thing!! Even now, with Eire no longer part of the UK bullies realm , albeit now part of an undemocratic hegemony......you still continue to whinge!

[T00ts]

I still remember Varadkar's face when he was visited by Barnier and Merkel. There was real fear in his eyes. He knew then that if he lost his gamble the EU would not think twice about Ireland if it suited them. He was on egg shells and it impacted on me that this man although full of determination in his TV interviews was actually scared stiff. Now the question has to be - why? What does he realise about the honest upfront straight forward EU top management that people like Gerry don't?

[Thomas]

NI will have a special status and stay aligned with the EU, get used to it.

Its a win win either way for me gerry.

You are the one getting all hysterical about it. Im simply telling you i think you are in cloud cuckoo land ....but you carry on .