Why is this still happening?

[Borchester]

If we want to solve all of these problems, we all have to put our hands much deeper into our pockets.

If it would solve my granddaughter's problems the social system could have everything I have, but I doubt that it will. Most of the extra money would be spent on virtue signalling by smug rubbish such as Hattie Chairperson.

[DeppityDawg]

But we've given you loads of data surely?

"Can't see the point. Most of what I've said about it up to now has been ignored anyway"

I'm listening, what would you do? Don't worry about the rubbish others are saying and you know I'm not looking for an argument, I'm interested in what you think. Your experience counts for a lot, and as you alluded, I have very little in this area although I have been told I may be mildly autistic myself.

No, there hasn't been "data". There are media items about court cases, and there are links to vested interest groups (Mencap etc), which give isolated "facts and figures", but fail to give empirical data, by which I mean measurable. Its no good for people like Harriet Harman to react to figures like "38,000 restraints" unless we can see the context? Out of HOW MANY total patients? Remember, this in in a year. If its out of 38,000 total patients, then thats an average of once per person per year? Do you see what I am getting at? Its pointless reacting to an isolated figure with claims of "human rights abuse" without the context. The only thing that I can find in one of your links that gives it context is that 980 people in that figure were restrained "5 or more times", which suggests that a small number of problem cases might make up a large proportion of those uses. And to be honest, I haven't got the time or the inclination to trawl through a 90 page document to look for the context. But we can't possibly "know" how many of these uses of restraint were justified unless we were close to the situation at the time. In many of these cases, there may have been no other alternative. Its all very well saying that these people are "special needs", as if that means whatever they do can be mitigated with some magic method, or that "they wouldn't hurt" a fly. We don't know that, and in some cases it that will not be true

In answer to the question, honestly? I don't know. I don't have this "experience" you talk about of working in this environment, and I doubt most people commenting in the thread do either. My nephew as I said does work in that environment. The people he works with are high dependency. I don't see him that often, but some of the things he says about that job are concerning. I suspect, like many others issues, care for the elderly for example, this is something that needs more and better funding, better regulation and higher wages to attract more of the better people. Whose going to pay? Are we all willing to pay more for better services, or are we all going to be content moaning about it on internet forums? In the end, there are so many deserving cases for more funding, you'd have to raise taxes enormously to fund them all. That I think is the real problem. Many years ago, society didn't care for these people, and they'd have rotted in some institution. We didn't have a developed social care system like today. If we want to solve all of these problems, we all have to put our hands much deeper into our pockets.

[Thomas]

I've seen them change whereever I've been, maybe it's different to your anecdotal perspective.

Have you now?

So tell me of this change , and how things have improved over the years ?

Of course you do, you see everything as a way of the English left gaining power at all times, and shafting Scotland.

You didn't even pay attention to the bit you quoted where I said it's a story as old as the system itseof, or when I criticised Blair earlier on eh? Selectivity..

I'm suggesting that things get worse under governments that encourage disgusting behaviour worldwide mate. I see a bigger world than petty wank politics in England.

aye aye , and those nasty governments just happen to be tories as ever? yawn. double yawn.

Listen to what you are saying, and reflect on my points . If the abuse in the care system is as old as the care system itself ....your words not mine , then that suggests things havent improved that much at all contrary to what you were saying earlier doesnt it?

You are happy to jump on the outrage bus , but as ever cant tell anyone how we bring about that care system nirvana , despite the fact many differing parties in many differing governments with vastly differing political perspectives havent been able to produce the perfection you desire.

And disability hate crime has - and this is a fact you can look up - gone up in recent years while a govt that encourages it is in power.

see? this is what im talking about , tossing off meaningless out of context stats to slyly discredit the tory government without you actually having the balls to come right out and say it.

perhaps ou could link me to what you are actually going on about.?

I'm not saying the system would be any better under Corbyn, shouty liberals like Emily whztever always invariably make things worse, but not as much as outrightly hateful people such as in our current govt.

Well i disagree.

In the five years wurzel and momentum were in charge of labour , they controlled the welsh care system , so where is the evidence of the care system nirvana in devolved wales that corbyn brought about?  From what i have read , and from what john of gwent has told me , corbyn run labour had wales at the bottom of all sorts of uk nation league tables , for example the wider welsh nhs ?

Over to you dyno. What did corbyn do that was better in wales than in the snp controlled scotland , the devolved DUP/sinn fein adminsintration in  northern ireland , or the tory gov in england?

Its easy for you anglo lefities to carp about socialism and nasty tories from the sidelines when you are out of power , but less easy to provide answers in the real world when you are in power.

The fact that you implicitly deny this because your biased agenda - and I say this as an SNP liker - to prop up the Tories in England and help them hurt Labour as it helps your party in Scotland is not lost on me.

Now I don't give a f**k about Labour anymore as you know, but I do mind when people give support to Boris Johnson's hateful anti-disablef govt or seek to excuse their policies, which it looks like you're doing here.

bollocks.

You see everything through a rose tinted glass of tory spite .

I have made no secret of my politics at any time unlike you who crawls around in the dirt and refuses to attach any colour to your mast except tory bad. What i have said though time and again when criticism is due , then critiscise away.

You simply and slyly constantly criticse the tory government  wether its deserved or not simply because of your anglo left wing oppose the tories for opposition sake politics.

You on the english left have no policies , no answers to the worlds problems , a poor track record when in government , and simply stand on the tory bad platform pretty much non stop yet cant understand why people shake their heads and laugh at you at election time?

Well done, you got it right, the worod would be better with a different party in govt as with the SNP in Scotland,

i vote snp because i am scottish , and want scotland to be independent. Every other issue is a sideshow . I also told you many a time in an indy scotland , unlike you who are wedded to a certain political ideology liek some lemming like fantasist , i would vote for any political party who i thought would be in my and my families best interests.

Having a devolved parliament has improved things in scotland , not just the snp .

Are you saying a verbatim copy of the SNP except English would not be any better?

dont know and i dont care ,any more than i care who the french or germans elect. If you want an ENP type party then whats stopping you ?

Stop sitting on daft interwebby political forums talking cac and go out and do something about it .

So I'm right then aren't I?

No you arent right at all.

Of course, like GerryT said in another thread, we English which you label as having left wing views, all think exactly alike.

stop making things up.

I compared you....one individual to javert , and asked a rhetorical question.

Just like those you label as Brexit voters are unthinking drones.

stop making things up.

I never said this? Another made up comment slyly put into the thread to paint an utrue picture you wish to put out there. Quote where i said or suggested this?

I have identical views to Javert in every area clearly by virtue of having some views that coincide

you are rambling again dyno.

Javert makes things up.....you make things up , and that was the comparison.

Fair enough. But forcibly sterilizing people is a really bad idea in my opinion, and will be open for abuse.

I wasnt really being serious. Well maybe in the fact certain individuals disgust me to the core that i would given half a chance sterilise them , but knowing full well society wouldnt allow it.

There are many reason why kids end up in care  , but in certain cases , you have to question the ability of certain folk to be allowed to have children in the first place  as its impossible to understand the life choices they make or the misery they infict time and again on innocents.

I notice though in true lefty fashion you are quick to criticise and dismiss while not offering up any solutions. As old borkie said , its easy to make a career out of being outraged .

[Borg Refinery]

Thats not much of an answer is it dyno?

Attitudes to disabilites have barely moved since i was a child in the eighties , so what are you talking about?

I've seen them change whereever I've been, maybe it's different to your anecdotal perspective.

This is a political forum primariliy , and i was picking you up on your point about care can be improved and it has been improved over time ( by who? where?) , and to me this is yet another sly dig at the tories as i see it dyno.

Of course you do, you see everything as a way of the English left gaining power at all times, and shafting Scotland.

You didn't even pay attention to the bit you quoted where I said it's a story as old as the system itseof, or when I criticised Blair earlier on eh? Selectivity..

I'm suggesting that things get worse under governments that encourage disgusting behaviour worldwide mate. I see a bigger world than petty wank politics in England.

Anti semitism has gone up under the Polish piss party because they deny the holocaust for example.

And disability hate crime has - and this is a fact you can look up - gone up in recent years while a govt that encourages it is in power.

I'm not saying the system would be any better under Corbyn, shouty liberals like Emily whztever always invariably make things worse, but not as much as outrightly hateful people such as in our current govt.

The fact that you implicitly deny this because your biased agenda - and I say this as an SNP liker - to prop up the Tories in England and help them hurt Labour as it helps your party in Scotland is not lost on me.

Now I don't give a F@@@ about Labour anymore as you know, but I do mind when people give support to Boris Johnson's hateful anti-disablef govt or seek to excuse their policies, which it looks like you're doing here.

You do this on many subjects , throw in a sly dig as though the world would be better under some other political party in government  ,

Well done, you got it right, the worod would be better with a different party in govt as with the SNP in Scotland, or are you denying things improved in Scotland? Are you saying a verbatim copy of the SNP except English would not be any better?

So I'm right then aren't I?

hence my reply about four differing parties being in charge of care in scotland and many of the same issues remaining .  So im not sure what you are talking about.

I gave you my opinion which you rejected out of hand.

yep definetly a javert dyno. I never said this.....is this a trait of the english left or something to lie and make things up others havent said?

Of course, like GerryT said in another thread, we English which you label as having left wing views, all think exactly alike. Just like those you label as Brexit voters are unthinking drones.

I have identical views to Javert in every area clearly by virtue of having some views that coincide, which is why I never get my posts edited by moderators when I respond to him.

I was thinking along the lines of those parents who shouldnt be allowed to have kids after having the first or second kids taken off them for say things like drug abuse. Not giving a feck about their children , who are then taken into care , and then they go on  to have more and more and similarily dont take care of them.

Fair enough. But forcibly sterilizing people is a really bad idea in my opinion, and will be open for abuse.

[Thomas]

Well attitudes aren't the same as they once were towards those with learning difficulties, nor isabilities, and mental health services no longer prescribe stuff like largactil.

Thats not much of an answer is it dyno?

Attitudes to disabilites have barely moved since i was a child in the eighties , so what are you talking about?

This is a political forum primariliy , and i was picking you up on your point about care can be improved and it has been improved over time ( by who? where?) , and to me this is yet another sly dig at the tories as i see it dyno.

You do this on many subjects , throw in a sly dig as though the world would be better under some other political party in government  , hence my reply about four differing parties being in charge of care in scotland and many of the same issues remaining .  So im not sure what you are talking about.

I wouldn't insult middle class twats by comparing them to the poor underclass like me who apparently deserve to be sterilised though..

yep definetly a javert dyno. I never said this.....is this a trait of the english left or something to lie and make things up others havent said?

I was thinking along the lines of those parents who shouldnt be allowed to have kids after having the first or second kids taken off them for say things like drug abuse. Not giving a feck about their children , who are then taken into care , and then they go on  to have more and more and similarily dont take care of them.

[cromwell]

Mod notice
I have very reluctantly locked this thread till another mod can make their decision

OK after representations made the thread is unlocked until someone independent can look at it,but please do not let it get fractious or it will be closed again.

[cromwell]

Mod notice
I have very reluctantly locked this thread till another mod can make their decision

[Borg Refinery]

Can't see the point. Most of what I've said about it up to now has been ignored anyway. I suggested we need better data before we get emotive about it, but this has been inexplicably translated as me saying that "the courts were wrong" when I never said anything about it. Its starting to look like I'm the woosey Liberal here, and the usually Liberal posters have become the reactionaries 

Seems everyone has a personal anecdote to add. My nephew is a care worker with special needs adults. One of those is a 16 stone girl with Prada Willi syndrome. Her behaviour is often unpredictable, she can be violent and she often has to be restrained to protect others. Another, an older guy with severe mental disorders, has attacked him several times. My nephew is a good lad, he loves his job and he is committed. But there are days when he gets very down about it. Its not the best pay in the world. In the end, its not all about callous workers or the greed of care businesses. There are decent people working in this industry, without which it would be a hundred times worse. While not denying the problems, I feel sorry that their names are being dragged through the shite like this

But like I said, what the feck do I know? Its not a job I could do, and I've every respect for those that do

But we've given you loads of data surely?

"Can't see the point. Most of what I've said about it up to now has been ignored anyway"

I'm listening, what would you do? Don't worry about the rubbish others are saying and you know I'm not looking for an argument, I'm interested in what you think. Your experience counts for a lot, and as you alluded, I have very little in this area although I have been told I may be mildly autistic myself.

[Borg Refinery]

So what's would your solution be then?

I'm not even going to answer your stupid assed question which shows your elitism up for what it is.

Elsewhere, you said rural farmers in the US do not deserve the same voting power as IT workers from California in the electoral college. You said so 100% explicitly.

I'd love to invite you to the yank forum I post on and tell the farmer and masters degree holding scientist, yes a real scientist unlike you, that his electoral college vote isn't worth the same as some guy in Cali.

I provided solutions elsewhere in this thread and refuted the narrative that we should just accept the status quo, which you always claim to be railing against.
Mod edited

[DeppityDawg]

Of course, humour aside, you could answer the question seriously, and your suggestions might be way better than ours as they have been on other threads, and that's not meant with sarc or facetiousness by the way.

Can't see the point. Most of what I've said about it up to now has been ignored anyway. I suggested we need better data before we get emotive about it, but this has been inexplicably translated as me saying that "the courts were wrong" when I never said anything about it. Its starting to look like I'm the woosey Liberal here, and the usually Liberal posters have become the reactionaries 

Seems everyone has a personal anecdote to add. My nephew is a care worker with special needs adults. One of those is a 16 stone girl with Prada Willi syndrome. Her behaviour is often unpredictable, she can be violent and she often has to be restrained to protect others. Another, an older guy with severe mental disorders, has attacked him several times. My nephew is a good lad, he loves his job and he is committed. But there are days when he gets very down about it. Its not the best pay in the world. In the end, its not all about callous workers or the greed of care businesses. There are decent people working in this industry, without which it would be a hundred times worse. While not denying the problems, I feel sorry that their names are being dragged through the shite like this

But like I said, what the feck do I know? Its not a job I could do, and I've every respect for those that do

[Javert]

Upper and middle class twats with no knowledge of how stuff works in the real world have always run things, that's how most of the country's run generally, it's not exclusive to this sector, ....

So what's would your solution be then?

[cromwell]

Jesus Christ Ollie, you have turned into a right little Guardian reading snowflake lately.

I have a granddaughter that I deeply love and who has her own problems. If you can sort them out I would be much obliged, but so far all you have come up with is the usual patronising right on shit that is becoming your hallmark

Really and I have a close relative who is profoundly autistic,over many years has been called mad,an effing half  wit,spat at, assaulted regularly told they shouldn't be allowed out and more all whilst trying to live a normal life and I could relate even worse of other people with learning disabilities treated appallingly by some of the so called normal in society and more worryingly by those in positions of authority.

I really don't give a rats what you or anyone else thinks of my approach on this and given the above wonder little who are the real mad or deserve locking away.

So you toddle off and spout your usual wind up  one liner posts and have a good chuckle,what I actually think is unprintable and I would be joining smurfy but most lkely on a permanent holiday other than that best if I say no more.

[Borchester]

Yes well Borky people with autism or learning disabilities aren't mad but you have a good laugh about it,and Thomas yeah I'm shaking my head too.......but for different reasons.

Jesus Christ Ollie, you have turned into a right little Guardian reading snowflake lately.

I have a granddaughter that I deeply love and who has her own problems. If you can sort them out I would be much obliged, but so far all you have come up with is the usual patronising right on shit that is becoming your hallmark

[Borg Refinery]

Erm......give everyone a fecking good shoeing?....no wait.....

Of course, humour aside, you could answer the question seriously, and your suggestions might be way better than ours as they have been on other threads, and that's not meant with sarc or facetiousness by the way.

[cromwell]

All true Tommy, but being the decent sort that you are, omitted to mention that there is a good living out of looking resolute and demanding that SOMETHING MUST BE DONE! In most cases there isn't, but it will get Hattie Chairperson's face in the newspapers and a few slots on Radio 4 and that is the bit that counts.

Sammuel Johnson once said that if a madman with a club entered the room then he was sure that most people would feel sorry for him, but first he would have to be restrained

Yes well Borky people with autism or learning disabilities aren't mad but you have a good laugh about it,and Thomas yeah I'm shaking my head too.......but for different reasons.