So we are treacherous?

[Baff]

I agree with future parliament's doing as they will, I've made that observation myself. The fact Cameron chose not to make the 2016 referendum binding spoke to me more of his fear we might vote to leave, and of course David Mammy's immediate 'it was only advisory, we are free to ignore it' tack showed us all where his idea of what Labour should be stood on democracy...

It's morally binding.

Otherwise don't bother calling yourself a democracy any more.
And in fact don't expect your laws to have any further moral legitimacy if you don't.

[Baff]

Sheep , your first line doesnt make any sense in the context of the thread. Northern ireland isnt leaving the eu , its staying in it.

Thats what unionists are all in a flap about , they feel betrayed by johnson over the border in the irish sea.

Thats not me saying this , im pointing out to you what northern irish unionists are saying. More to the point its making a total mockery of brexit being a uk vote to leave when the whole uk isnt leaving.

There is mileage in what you are saying, but not that much.
NI has left the EU.

It remains tied to the EU single market in specific regards to agricultural stuff.
It's is perhaps 95% out, 5% in. (Choose your own percentage)

Detractors will use this to propagandise.


It's partly true, but in the round a lie.
Like you however I do feel it's unfinnished business.

If once the new systems bed in, no one much cares... then it will be finished business.
Right now, I'm in wait and see mode.

I don't have any issue with NI leaving if they vote for it.
Although my natural sympathies would be for those forced to leave who wished to remain if that is what was voted for.

[cromwell]

Here's a perfect sneering piece of journalism

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/24/bill-for-boris-johnson-brexit-is-coming-punishingly-steep

[johnofgwent]

ignore him john. Its just quackers oft repeated red herring to de legitimise the brexit referendum.

Brexiters soon dealt with his "legally binding " nonsense in 2019 , when they told the tories get brexit done or else.

5 years on from the brexit referendum and liberal like quackers still can't dry their eyes , and continue to bleat incessantly how democracy isnt fair.

Legally binding is a complete nonsensical red herring , because no parliament can bind a future parliament , meaning had brexit been legally binding in 2016 , if labour had won in 2017 , then they could have undone brexit anyway.

I agree with future parliament's doing as they will, I've made that observation myself. The fact Cameron chose not to make the 2016 referendum binding spoke to me more of his fear we might vote to leave, and of course David Mammy's immediate 'it was only advisory, we are free to ignore it' tack showed us all where his idea of what Labour should be stood on democracy...

[Thomas]

Two points of order


1) why would it be 'legally binding'. It's legally binding if the act that declares it says so. Otherwise, it isn't


2) Contrary to your statement... Browns ill advised alternative vote referendum debacle WAS binding. Shame we didn't bind it round his neck when we threw it In the Thames

ignore him john. Its just quackers oft repeated red herring to de legitimise the brexit referendum.

Brexiters soon dealt with his "legally binding " nonsense in 2019 , when they told the tories get brexit done or else.

5 years on from the brexit referendum and liberal like quackers still cant dry their eyes , and continue to bleat incessantly how democracy isnt fair.

Legally binding is a complete nonsensical red herring , because no parliament can bind a future parliament , meaning had brexit been legally binding in 2016 , if labour had won in 2017 , then they could have undone brexit anyway.

[johnofgwent]

Unlike any other referendums in UK, a Northern Ireland plebiscite would be legally binding on the government.

Two points of order


1) why would it be 'legally binding'. It's legally binding if the act that declares it says so. Otherwise, it isn't


2) Contrary to your statement... Browns ill advised alternative vote referendum debacle WAS binding. Shame we didn't bind it round his neck when we threw it In the Thames

[Borchester]

https://archive.is/0GLEI

It looks as though, now that Brexit and the US elections are out of the way, the Sunday Times is doing its best to stir up apathy over the question of independence.

The best bit in that article was where 30% of the Welsh wanted a referendum but only 23% wanted independence. 

[Thomas]

https://archive.is/0GLEI

THE Union of the United Kingdom is today facing mounting pressure on two fronts as opinion polls suggest that a majority of people in Scotland and Northern Ireland now want referendums on their membership of it within the next five years.

The snapshots, commissioned by The Sunday Times, come as the SNP has set itself on a constitutional collision course with the UK Government, announcing that if, as expected, it gets a majority in May's Scottish parliamentary elections, then, once the pandemic is over, it will stage its own "legal referendum" and dare Boris Johnson to challenge it in court.

[Sheepy]

Well, there you are, it makes perfect sense to me and that is what counts Thomas.

[Thomas]

I don't much care who said and did what Thomas, the rules is the rules, they broke the rules because they didn't want to accept an overall democratic decision

you arent making much sense here sheep . Who broke the rules , and where?

The first part is easy , remainers spent 3 years in parliament trying to thwart the leave vote , until the 2019 general election . Fully agree.

The second part is harder for you to come to terms with , and is specifically reagding northern ireland. The english conservative government broke the very rules you say you support in terms of the one uk brexit vote , and agreed to split the uk up and leave N.I in the eu.

No one else.

Which we kept saying all along those are the rules for both sides even before any referendum. You can all fight over the bones of it forever more, it doesn't change the rules. Or you don't have democracy and will be back right where you started. We should have had the Swiss oversee it all maybe. After all they were baby steps in the big world of real democracy.

again you arent addressing the point of the thread sheep.

You know i fully agree with the rules of demcoracy becuase despite voting remain in 2016 , the behaviour of certain remainers  , especially on forums like this , disgusted me to the core of my being . The point is , who are you blaming for northern ireland being annexed to the eu......remainers?

If so , with respect that is a nonsense.

Ian og and irish unionists have no doubt where the blame lies.

[Sheepy]

im addressing where you were saying that remainers had divided the votes into regions.

Im pointing out all my life , since the day i was born , and all my adult voting life which pre dates 1999 devolution , there has always been scottish local elections.

As for talking specifically about ehe 2016 brexit vote , the uk government has by and large demolished your argument by agreeing to northern ireland staying in the eu .

So the overall uk vote should me that n.i leaves the eu , but it hasnt.

so why arent you telling your own uk government this? They are the ones who are breaking the compact  , which is what has northern irish unionists upset.

The uk government changed the rules sheep , no one else. You can moan abou remainers or anyone else , but the fact remains the english tory government in your country agreed to the eu annexing N.I , putting a border between one part of the uk and another , which is why Ian og is all upset.

I don't much care who said and did what Thomas, the rules is the rules, they broke the rules because they didn't want to accept an overall democratic decision. Which we kept saying all along those are the rules for both sides even before any referendum. You can all fight over the bones of it forever more, it doesn't change the rules. Or you don't have democracy and will be back right where you started. We should have had the Swiss oversee it all maybe. After all they were baby steps in the big world of real democracy.

[Thomas]

Direct Democracy doesn't work like that, if it is a regional vote then that it is only for that region or city or local democracy, an overall vote is what it says.

im addressing where you were saying that remainers had divided the votes into regions.

Im pointing out all my life , since the day i was born , and all my adult voting life which pre dates 1999 devolution , there has always been scottish local elections.

As for talking specifically about the 2016 brexit vote , the uk government has by and large demolished your argument by agreeing to northern ireland staying in the eu .

So the overall uk vote should mean that n.i leaves the eu , but it hasnt.

Which was always made plain before the referendum.

so why arent you telling your own uk government this? They are the ones who are breaking the compact  , which is what has northern irish unionists upset.

Changing the rules to suit yourself doesn't count. I have no sympathy for any politico who tried to change the rules for their own version of so-called representative democracy.

The uk government changed the rules sheep , no one else. You can moan abou remainers or anyone else , but the fact remains the english tory government in your country agreed to the eu annexing N.I , putting a border between one part of the uk and another , which is why Ian og is all upset.

[Sheepy]

Direct Democracy doesn't work like that, if it is a regional vote then that it is only for that region or city or local democracy, an overall vote is what it says. Which was always made plain before the referendum. Changing the rules to suit yourself doesn't count. I have no sympathy for any politico who tried to change the rules for their own version of so-called representative democracy.

[Thomas]

I know what they are saying, I am just pointing out, it wasn't us trying to be clever dividing up the vote into regions. So NI is staying because apparently that is what they voted for and the GF agreement was always about reunification anyway.

im not sure what you are saying sheep. what regions?

The uk since its inception 300 years ago has been divided into what you term "regions". It is a multi national state held together by various treaties from centuries ago. In my "region" for example , you try buying a house under your "english law".

In terms of voting , Voting has always been divided up into regions as far back as i can remember. Devolution is now nearly 22 years old , and even back in the days of the old unitary state , we had things like local scottish elections  , and there was the home rule referendum in scotland in 1979.

So with respect sheep , the argument that the uk was one homogenous country until the nasty europeans and remainers came along post brexit to try and thwart english brexiters leaving the eu doesnt really hold any water.

I fully agree with you english remainers have been trying to give scotland and northern ireland especially a using since 2016 to thwart you , and they have suceeded in part with northern ireland.

By the way sheep , if northern ireland is staying because they voted to stay , again that doesnt make any sense when scotland had the highest remain vote in these islands.

In effect , after telling us brexit was a uk vote ( especially people like stevlin ) when i pointed out gibraltar took part , he went into meltdown , the narrative is changing once more and now northern irelands remain vote must be respected.

So why cant ours?

Seems to me deomcracy gets cherry picked as i told the quacker at the start of this thread when it suits certain folk.

[Sheepy]

Sheep , your first line doesnt make any sense in the context of the thread. Northern ireland isnt leaving the eu , its staying in it.

Thats what unionists are all in a flap about , they feel betrayed by johnson over the border in the irish sea.

Thats not me saying this , im pointing out to you what northern irish unionists are saying. More to the point its making a total mockery of brexit being a uk vote to leave when the whole uk isnt leaving.

I know what they are saying, I am just pointing out, it wasn't us trying to be clever dividing up the vote into regions. So NI is staying because apparently that is what they voted for and the GF agreement was always about reunification anyway.