The EU triggered article 16 or didn't discussion

[Sheepy]

What you have here is an example of toddlers regularly throwing tantrums versus adults - for the last 5 years the EU has acted like the adult in the room whilst the UK has regularly done or threatened to do all sorts of ridiculous and immoral things.

On the one occasion when the EU made a mistake, then reversed it almost immediately and apologised (something the infantile UK government would never do), they are suddenly seen as the evil ones, even though the UK has done dozens of things the same over the last 5 years.

As Gerry points out, the UK was pretty much the first country to impose export controls on essential coronavirus medicines at the beginning of Coronavirus.  Of course no doubt that's different because it's fine for English people to keep all the medicines for themselves, but of course it's a scandal if any other country were to think about behaving in the same way.

The weird thing is, it's more shocking globally when the organisation that normally behaves rationally makes a big mistake, whereas the country which regularly behaves in a ridiculous fashion gets away with it.

Not to mention, as far as I'm aware, the EU has still gone ahead and imposed export control options onto vaccine exports, so even though by reading the media you might think that the UK "won" and the EU backed down, actually they are still proposing precisely what they originally intended, and since they know exactly where all the vaccines are being manufactured, they don't need Article 16 in order to control it if needed.

Spouting cobblers as usual Javert.
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/political-bloodbath-behind-closed-doors-123214683.html

[GerryT]

What you have here is an example of toddlers regularly throwing tantrums versus adults - for the last 5 years the EU has acted like the adult in the room whilst the UK has regularly done or threatened to do all sorts of ridiculous and immoral things.

On the one occasion when the EU made a mistake, then reversed it almost immediately and apologised (something the infantile UK government would never do), they are suddenly seen as the evil ones, even though the UK has done dozens of things the same over the last 5 years.

As Gerry points out, the UK was pretty much the first country to impose export controls on essential coronavirus medicines at the beginning of Coronavirus.  Of course no doubt that's different because it's fine for English people to keep all the medicines for themselves, but of course it's a scandal if any other country were to think about behaving in the same way.

The weird thing is, it's more shocking globally when the organisation that normally behaves rationally makes a big mistake, whereas the country which regularly behaves in a ridiculous fashion gets away with it.

Not to mention, as far as I'm aware, the EU has still gone ahead and imposed export control options onto vaccine exports, so even though by reading the media you might think that the UK "won" and the EU backed down, actually they are still proposing precisely what they originally intended, and since they know exactly where all the vaccines are being manufactured, they don't need Article 16 in order to control it if needed.

Good post Javert, very true.
That bit in bold, yes the EU knew Art16 was the incorrect vehicle for blocking vaccine's being shipped out of the EU so the backed down and are putting in place the process for doing exactly that. Not in an effort to just block vaccines, as the UK is doing, but to stop companies like AZ from not fulfilling their contracts with the EU.

[GerryT]

I think the NI protocal isn't being kept to in either spirit or letter by the EU.
And that isn't a big surprise to anybody.

Yes it is, the NI protcol is working exactly as Johnson agreed. I have been saying for months there was a border in the Irish sea. Boris lied about it, spectacularly, when he went to Belfast and said to business that they should throw customs paperwork in the bin. But then he is also on record saying fu#k business.

Which is why Boris changed the WA to allow us to leave it at any time should it be unsatisfactory.
I see no reason why we shouldn't.

The WA is in the bin, that was about leaving. I presume your talking about the brexit trade deal, he signed an international recognised trade agreement. How can it be unsatisfactory, Johnson negotiated the deal, it's his deal. It was hailed as a fantastic deal.

The sad part is Johnson won't walk away from the deal as no deal is much much worse that the deal. He knows it and most people know it. If you think this is bad I hope you don't get to see no deal. And do you think the UK can just walk away, have you some detail on the termination clauses of the trade deal ?

Even under no deal he has the GFA and NI protocol to deal with. They won't be so easy to walk away from.

But I also think it's jumping the gun to do so right now in a period when it hasn't been allowed time to bed down.
We have some systems in place to address any issues. We are using them. If they don't smooth things over, then we will end the treaty.
No biggie.

It's only been 35 days, give it 10 years and it might bed down. How many of the 50,000 customs officials that you need has the UK employed ?  maybe if that's done things might improve a tad.

[Javert]

Not according to this Baff, sounds like your bullsh1tting. In the role she holds now, what disasters has she. From what I've seen she's doing a good job. Aside from the Art16 issue, which we don't know yet who published what (but we do know it wasn't enacted). But you have no issue with Johnson threatening to use the very same Art two weeks ago and again yesterday.

What you have here is an example of toddlers regularly throwing tantrums versus adults - for the last 5 years the EU has acted like the adult in the room whilst the UK has regularly done or threatened to do all sorts of ridiculous and immoral things.

On the one occasion when the EU made a mistake, then reversed it almost immediately and apologised (something the infantile UK government would never do), they are suddenly seen as the evil ones, even though the UK has done dozens of things the same over the last 5 years.

As Gerry points out, the UK was pretty much the first country to impose export controls on essential coronavirus medicines at the beginning of Coronavirus.  Of course no doubt that's different because it's fine for English people to keep all the medicines for themselves, but of course it's a scandal if any other country were to think about behaving in the same way.

The weird thing is, it's more shocking globally when the organisation that normally behaves rationally makes a big mistake, whereas the country which regularly behaves in a ridiculous fashion gets away with it.

Not to mention, as far as I'm aware, the EU has still gone ahead and imposed export control options onto vaccine exports, so even though by reading the media you might think that the UK "won" and the EU backed down, actually they are still proposing precisely what they originally intended, and since they know exactly where all the vaccines are being manufactured, they don't need Article 16 in order to control it if needed.

[GerryT]

She was a major league procurement disaster in her time as German defence minister.
Made them the laughing stock of the world.

No working submarines.
4 working fighter jets.
Tanks divisions had to be made up by Romania and The Netherlands.
They were unable to logistically supply their 3,000 soldiers in Afghanistan.
And on NATO exercises their troops were deployed with broomsticks in lea of rifles.

Is anyone surprised by her being a procurement disaster for vaccine?
I doubt it.

Not according to this Baff, sounds like your bullsh1tting. In the role she holds now, what disasters has she. From what I've seen she's doing a good job. Aside from the Art16 issue, which we don't know yet who published what (but we do know it wasn't enacted). But you have no issue with Johnson threatening to use the very same Art two weeks ago and again yesterday.

[Baff]

I think the NI protocal isn't being kept to in either spirit or letter by the EU.
And that isn't a big surprise to anybody.

Which is why Boris changed the WA to allow us to leave it at any time should it be unsatisfactory.
I see no reason why we shouldn't.

But I also think it's jumping the gun to do so right now in a period when it hasn't been allowed time to bed down.
We have some systems in place to address any issues. We are using them. If they don't smooth things over, then we will end the treaty.
No biggie.

[GerryT]

My thoughts are that Boris realised that there are no pockets in shroud and so ordered as much vaccine as possible in the shortest time span available.

Boris is horrible, but the sort of bloke you need in a tight spot.

Mrs Leyen is a nice German hausfrau who likes to keep an eye on the pennies and was probably waiting for the vaccine price to drop in the summer sales.

Ursula has probably killed more of the Irish than the British ever did, but she is good enough for Gerry. 

A well thought out response. Boris good in a tight spot. He's the one leading the UK response to covid, a disaster. He's the one that negoiated the brexit deal and NI protocol. Now it seems he wants to back out of both. Why doesn't he just put in place the things he said he would to allow the UK to function. Customs officials, systmes, trained officials, training for business. All the basic stuff.

[Baff]

She was a major league procurement disaster in her time as German defence minister.
Made them the laughing stock of the world.

No working submarines.
4 working fighter jets.
Tanks divisions had to be made up by Romania and The Netherlands.
They were unable to logistically supply their 3,000 soldiers in Afghanistan.
And on NATO exercises their troops were deployed with broomsticks in lea of rifles.

Is anyone surprised by her being a procurement disaster for vaccine?
I doubt it.

[cromwell]

My thoughts are that Boris realised that there are no pockets in shroud and so ordered as much vaccine as possible in the shortest time span available.

Boris is horrible, but the sort of bloke you need in a tight spot.

Ursula Leyen is a nice German hausfrau who likes to keep an eye on the pennies and was probably waiting for the vaccine price to drop in the summer sales.

Ursula has probably killed more of the Irish than the British ever did, but she is good enough for Gerry. 

Well there were reports they were less than happy with her in Germany and allegations of fingers in the till,it seems the commision is a bit like the Hol somewhere to pension off the sick the lame and useless.

[Borchester]

Martin wants to keep relations with the UK strong, the suggestion of using the NI protocol was a stupid idea, but it was retracted quickly showing the EU is thinking straight. Unlike Johnson who wants to use Art16, what's your thoughts on that ?

My thoughts are that Boris realised that there are no pockets in shroud and so ordered as much vaccine as possible in the shortest time span available.

Boris is horrible, but the sort of bloke you need in a tight spot.

Mrs Leyen is a nice German hausfrau who likes to keep an eye on the pennies and was probably waiting for the vaccine price to drop in the summer sales.

Ursula has probably killed more of the Irish than the British ever did, but she is good enough for Gerry. 

[GerryT]

Except those restrictions are in general an outcome insisted upon by the holder of the patent, and a further part of the "problem" is a demand made by the EU back when it was just an EEC that pharmaceutical manufacturers seeking a licence to manufacture in the UK had to declare whether the intended market were the UK or not, because of EEC and other countries setting conditions on what could me added as an inactive filler, colouring agent etc ...

What your saying might be true but what I'm talking about is the UK Govt restricting the exportation of medicines when they are needed in the UK. What the UK were going nuts about when the EU were in dispute with AZ.

[GerryT]

It isn't our fault Gerry. We are just following the Irish Times...

  https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/relations-between-dublin-and-brussels-plummet-to-freezing-over-article-16-fiasco-1.4475963?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Frelations-between-dublin-and-brussels-plummet-to-freezing-over-article-16-fiasco-1.4475963

Martin wants to keep relations with the UK strong, the suggestion of using the NI protocol was a stupid idea, but it was retracted quickly showing the EU is thinking straight. Unlike Johnson who wants to use Art16, what's your thoughts on that ?

[GerryT]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1391084/EU-vaccine-row-Why-did-European-Commission-revoke-Article-16-NI-protocol-EVG

The EU didn't trigger Art16, poor reporting. It was only ever a suggestion. Just like Johnson suggested yesterday and two weeks ago.

[GerryT]

Yes gerry they did but you wouldn't want to admit that now would you?

No they didn't.

Any ways as Nick says your blind loyalty and defence is pathetic,meanwhile here we're quite happy and recent events only confirm we were right to leave and it's made some remainers feel the same.

How did you say your vaccination program is going?

Your happy with recent events, are you happy with your fishing industry, banking, export delays, lamb industry etc etc etc
Your win -- a vaccine programme built on an uneducated guess, a gamble. Face it, brexit is a disaster and the Uk is gambling with your life to ramp up a single shot and quote a high number, will the UK ever get around to giving the second shop, god only knows. The latest news I hear is the UK is considering giving a different manufacturers shot as the second shot to people that received the first AZ vaccine.

Our handling of covid and vaccines is going ok, we are killing less than half the amount of people per 100,000 compared to the UK. But it's not a competition Cromwell, if this UK gamble goes wrong, and I seriously hope it doesn't, but if it does then the UK could develop a new strain of covid that's far worse than what's out there. Even if the UK does get ahead, if other countries don't get a grip on vaccinations then they could develop a virulent strain which could be vaccine resistant. The only way out of Covid is a global approach, not solo efforts.

[johnofgwent]

Except those restrictions are in general an outcome insisted upon by the holder of the patent, and a further part of the "problem" is a demand made by the EU back when it was just an EEC that pharmaceutical manufacturers seeking a licence to manufacture in the UK had to declare whether the intended market were the UK or not, and if not, then where, because of EEC and other countries setting conditions on what could me added as an inactive filler, colouring agent etc ...