Should zero Covid be the objective?

[grumzed]

Scott, I thought you were implying a conspiracy but I understand that you think it is really that everyone involved in measures to combat the virus are actually doing it for the money. Does that include all the doctors and nurses, and lots of poorly paid researchers, too? Or are they just somehow convinced to go along with some establishment view. I note you also include the WHO in this as well as most mainstream politicians in most countries in the world (notable exceptions were Bolsinaro and Trump).

Clearly governments most countries have taken significant steps to control the virus at great expense. Do you think all governments are corrupt or are all taken in by those who you believe are making money out of this? It may be a cheaper option to let the virus take its course. The black death, which killed 60% of the population, was also a pandemic but was a bacterium not a virus and played out its course. Today this would be relatively easy to eliminate. A fast mutating virus is not. It is very unlikely that Covid will be eliminated in the near future but will have to be kept in check by annual innoculations for some significant percentage of the population. 

[grumzed]

The trajectory for trying to achieve Zero-Covid is, at present, the same one for trying to minimise deaths and the overwhelming of the NHS. When the numbers of cases reduce sufficiently then there will be a relaxation of the control measures and we will have to live with a certain number of cases per year. There will still be research to try to find a means to eliminiate the disease but at a level that will be similar of that trying to eliminate the flu.

As for the off-topic debate regarding the BBC being comparable to RT I think this should probably be a separate thread.

[Scott777]

Scott, I would not rerly on RT for your news. There was so much in that article that was either wrong or deliberately misleading I could not believe anyone would have the gall to publish it. But that is what RT do! Do you really think there is a national conspiracy which the government, the Labour party, the Lib-Dems and the Scots and Welsh Nats (not to mention the vast majority of experts in the fields of medicine and virology) are all party to? And this is a similar picture in most countries in the world too - the policies are largely the same as that in the UK.

To go back to the "Subject" title, I think achieving zero COVID would be a great aim but it is unlikely to be achieved for many years, probably decades. The virus mutates fast and is so widespread in the world that vaccines will probably not be able to keep up. Like flu there has to be new vaccines made each year to combat the latest variants.

SUCCESS!! My post has included the quote.  Thanks admin.

I'm not relying on RT.  It supports the body of evidence that say PCR tests should not be used as they are.  Or maybe RT is conspiring with the WHO, our PM, and the creator of PCR?  No, I don't believe there is any great conspiracy.  What conspiracy did I mention?  I have explained in other threads, everyone is following guidelines from people like the WHO, and everyone is either in it for money, or control.  That's not a conspiracy (they didn't get together in a shady room).

Regarding, as you say, achieving zero covid, you first need to establish that there is a deadly pandemic of Covid, and if there is no evidence, why even ask the question?  It's like debating how to achieve zero stubbed toes, because there's a pandemic of people stubbing their toe.  We can agree that we can't achieve zero covid, but sadly they are trying to, for absolutely no reason.

[Sheepy]

Well you saw the misinfromation argument used on here post the 2016 brexit referendum when you had quackers and co screaming the referendum result wasnt fair because your side lied better then theirs.

I just can't get my head around the fact there are intelligent and otherwise knowledgable people out there who actually believe propaganda and lies are only things practiced by the great unwashed like the russians so we mustnt have anything to do with them.

Mmmm well since the EU has shown its true colours they are a bit quiet on that one for a minute or two. Although of course we were the biggest liars under the sun and spreaders of misinformation, no NASA and a bunch of ardent Nazis hell bent on building weapons of mass destruction who incidently used forced Labour from all over the third Reich including French and Dutch and worked thousands of them to death, no cold war, in the first place, so on and so forth.

[Thomas]

They have even found a new byword for it, Misinformation, which coming from them is a bit rich, when there are thousands of cases in history of themselves spreading it, operation paperclip comes to mind for a start, no misinformation, no NASA.

Well you saw the misinfromation argument used on here post the 2016 brexit referendum when you had quackers and co screaming the referendum result wasnt fair because your side lied better then theirs.

I just cant get my head around the fact there are intelligent and otherwise knowledgable people out there who actually believe propaganda and lies are only things practiced by the great unwashed like the russians so we mustnt have anything to do with them.

[Sheepy]

As newspaper sales increasingly fall off a cliff , they are fast becoming an outdated platform of digesting news and increasingly of less and less use to the establishment for propaganda purposes.

Now auntie no longer ha s the monopoly on tv she once did , again , the establishment are reduced to rubbishing other propaganda platforms like russia today to stave off any competition , ably helped by people like grumzed parroting establishment propaganda himself.

The main and ever increasing source of news for many people is of course online , which once more governments across the world are doing their damndest to gain control of just in case  the plebs start thinking for themselves.

They have even found a new byword for it, Misinformation, which coming from them is a bit rich, when there are thousands of cases in history of themselves spreading it, operation paperclip comes to mind for a start, no misinformation, no NASA.

[Thomas]

Well, I cannot say I am much bothered by it all Thomas, ever since Politicians realised people read newspapers they have been used as one form of propaganda or another, once taken over by corporate press Barons it has become even worse, as they Jockey for position and try and get their own men or women over the line, TV is no better if not worse. I guess I just find it all amusing reading and watching the musings of it all, I was told the other day the ordinary Chinese are more up on current events than most of us, I doubt that very much I would say we are about even, mushrooms kept in the dark and fed bullshit from every direction. Or under direction however you look at it.

As newspaper sales increasingly fall off a cliff , they are fast becoming an outdated platform of digesting news and increasingly of less and less use to the establishment for propaganda purposes.

Now auntie no longer ha s the monopoly on tv she once did , again , the establishment are reduced to rubbishing other propaganda platforms like russia today to stave off any competition , ably helped by people like grumzed parroting establishment propaganda himself.

The main and ever increasing source of news for many people is of course online , which once more governments across the world are doing their damndest to gain control of just in case  the plebs start thinking for themselves.

[Sheepy]

I like grumzed sheep , and his posts are often informative even if i dont agree with them , but i  definetly dont agree with him here regarding RT.

Not specifically this subject of covid 19 , but in general terms as a propaganda machine.

Russia today are a propaganda channel , the same as the BBC are a propaganda channel.

In 2014 , i relied on channels like RT to find out what was happening in other parts of my own country while the holier than thou BBC wouldnt report it.

We have just today had the BBC sarah smith , a prominent bbc journalist in scotland , and daughter as im sure you know of former labour leader john smith apologise for telling lies on the news last night about alec salmond regarding deliberately misquoting what he had said.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19122963.bbcs-sarah-smith-apologises-saying-alex-salmond-wants-fm-resign/?ref=twtrec

We had the holier than thou bbc report to the uk public that abdelbasset al megrahi was on the run with gaddafi in 2011 while at the very same time on american news CNN , they were reporting from megrahis hospital bedside as he lay dying .

The english public of course from 2016 onwards got a taste of aunties bias regarding brexit .

So when grumzed and others tell me they wouldnt rely on RT for news , i wouldnt rely on the bbc either. Both are as bad as each other.

People should have the freedom to choose which propaganda channel they wish to peruse ,not have one blackballed simply for being russian while turning a blind eye to the same propaganda channels in the western world.

Well, I cannot say I am much bothered by it all Thomas, ever since Politicians realised people read newspapers they have been used as one form of propaganda or another, once taken over by corporate press Barons it has become even worse, as they Jockey for position and try and get their own men or women over the line, TV is no better if not worse. I guess I just find it all amusing reading and watching the musings of it all, I was told the other day the ordinary Chinese are more up on current events than most of us, I doubt that very much I would say we are about even, mushrooms kept in the dark and fed bullshit from every direction. Or under direction however you look at it.

[Thomas]

I like RT they make me laugh, even sometimes they come out with something useful which isn't just attacking the West for the sake of it,

I like grumzed sheep , and his posts are often informative even if i dont agree with them , but i  definetly dont agree with him here regarding RT.

Not specifically this subject of covid 19 , but in general terms as a propaganda machine.

Russia today are a propaganda channel , the same as the BBC are a propaganda channel.

In 2014 , i relied on channels like RT to find out what was happening in other parts of my own country while the holier than thou BBC wouldnt report it.

We have just today had the BBC sarah smith , a prominent bbc journalist in scotland , and daughter as im sure you know of former labour leader john smith apologise for telling lies on the news last night about alec salmond regarding deliberately misquoting what he had said.

BBC's Sarah Smith apologises after saying Alex Salmond wants FM to resign

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19122963.bbcs-sarah-smith-apologises-saying-alex-salmond-wants-fm-resign/?ref=twtrec

We had the holier than thou bbc report to the uk public that abdelbasset al megrahi was on the run with gaddafi in 2011 while at the very same time on american news CNN , they were reporting from megrahis hospital bedside as he lay dying .

The english public of course from 2016 onwards got a taste of aunties bias regarding brexit .

So when grumzed and others tell me they wouldnt rely on RT for news , i wouldnt rely on the bbc either. Both are as bad as each other.

People should have the freedom to choose which propaganda channel they wish to peruse ,not have one blackballed simply for being russian while turning a blind eye to the same propaganda channels in the western world.

[Sheepy]

I like RT they make me laugh, even sometimes they come out with something useful which isn't just attacking the West for the sake of it, being the bastion of free speech and being not just purely political, although they did ban me from commenting when I questioned some the logic of other posters, it seemed like they were living in a parallel universe full of paranoia and Kremlin type deception. It amused the hell out of me. They said I was spying on them and I was a democrat and a Hillary follower. LOL.
Not that I had a clue so many Americans were there anyway, following advice from RT, I thought they must have been Kremlin trolls.
Mind they have worked out with science where all that Neanderthal DNA everyone carries came from, priceless, it does indeed come from Neanderthals .

[grumzed]

Scott, I would not rerly on RT for your news. There was so much in that article that was either wrong or deliberately misleading I could not believe anyone would have the gall to publish it. But that is what RT do! Do you really think there is a national conspiracy which the government, the Labour party, the Lib-Dems and the Scots and Welsh Nats (not to mention the vast majority of experts in the fields of medicine and virology) are all party to? And this is a similar picture in most countries in the world too - the policies are largely the same as that in the UK.

To go back to the "Subject" title, I think achieving zero COVID would be a great aim but it is unlikely to be achieved for many years, probably decades. The virus mutates fast and is so widespread in the world that vaccines will probably not be able to keep up. Like flu there has to be new vaccines made each year to combat the latest variants.

[Scott777]

"Lateral flow testing is known not to be accurate in that it only detects about 77% of covid infections."  How can that possibly be tested?  I'll tell you how they do it.  They assume the PCR test is correct, and then if the lateral flow gives a different result, they assume that was wrong.  Can you see the flaw?

The BBC, the WHO, the creator of PCR Kary Mullis, Dominic Raab and Boris Johnson, and a portuguese judge have all said it is not accurate, or should not be used to test viral infection.  Now you need to ask, where is the evidence of a pandemic?  Where is the evidence it would kill millions?  As I said, total deaths per capita in 2020 was less than every year from 1990 to 2000.  It was the same in 2001, 2002, and 2003.

"Landmark legal ruling finds that Covid tests are not fit for purpose."

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/507937-covid-pcr-test-fail/

BBC "The main test used to diagnose coronavirus is so sensitive it could be picking up fragments of dead virus from old infections, scientists say.":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54000629

Raab (at 8:05):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGyWav_QLyY&t=512s

Kary Mullis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JTl-FLonvo

[grumzed]

It's not all corporate science as much is independent research and government run studies, but I would agree to be careful of vested interest. Nobody is praying to science but science uses research and logic rather than guesswork and fanciful ideas based on no evidence whatever.

Lateral flow testing is known not to be accurate in that it only detects about 77% of covid infections. If you don't have the virus it is nearly perfect in telling you that. There are better tests but they take longer.

Of course there is vested interest in big Pharma but unless we get on with trying to eliminate the spread of this virus with its fast forming mutations the consequences will be worse for all of us. I would not trust large corporations to always do the right thing either, but this is a pandemic that would kill millions if not acted on with haste. Think of it as an arms race. It needs coordinated action. The number of confirmed cases is very high in the USA (28 million) because they did not vaccinate early.

[Sheepy]

I'm not sure what a spread is, but you cannot account for unknowns when the PCR test should not be used to diagnose viral infection and most of the positives are false positives, as high as 93%.  Not possible.  This was confirmed when they tested the whole of Liverpool using lateral flow, and suddenly the cases miraculously dropped by a massive amount.

If you think they would not use it on humans after failed animal tests, I've got news for you.  Here is a video on human experimentation, described by the CUNY School of Professional Studies as "particularly repugnant", including Pfizer meningitis trials.  The primary objective of these big pharma corporations is to maximise profit.  Covid vaccines are massively profitable.  It's not about me, it's about billions of people being experimented on, and justified by a pandemic that has seen fewer total deaths per capita in the UK in 2020 than in every year from 1990 to 2000.

Some interesting homework Scott, well done, with all of this praying to science, it gets a little foggy for people, I am not so sure all of this corporate science is everything it says on the tin either.

[Scott777]

I'm not sure what a spread is, but you cannot account for unknowns when the PCR test should not be used to diagnose viral infection and most of the positives are false positives, as high as 93%.  Not possible.  This was confirmed when they tested the whole of Liverpool using lateral flow, and suddenly the cases miraculously dropped by a massive amount.

If you think they would not use it on humans after failed animal tests, I've got news for you.  Here is a video on human experimentation, described by the CUNY School of Professional Studies as "particularly repugnant", including Pfizer meningitis trials.  The primary objective of these big pharma corporations is to maximise profit.  Covid vaccines are massively profitable.  It's not about me, it's about billions of people being experimented on, and justified by a pandemic that has seen fewer total deaths per capita in the UK in 2020 than in every year from 1990 to 2000.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE0-NvjDsBQ