Labour's betrayal of the working class is a Tory gain

[johnofgwent]

Increases in VAT tends to be something that Tory governments do. Heath's government intoroduced it at 8% to please the then EEC. Thatcher's nearly doubled it to 15% to help finance income tax cuts. Labour admittedly increasec it to 17.5%, then the Tories increased it again to 20%. VAT is the Tory tax rise of choice most of the time. Historically at any rate. For it is clear that Johnson is prepared to be different when it suits him.

It was Norman Lamont who raised it to 17.5 from 15 toncoverca one off refund to the poll tax. I was freelancing and had to increase my invoice at no benefit to myself ...


The Labour party saw no reason to drop it mind ...

[srb7677]

The OP raised a second point I do not believe I responded to at the time. The issue of Tax Thresholds.


In my earliest working years, neither I, Moira or anyone in our street paid a penny in Tax as none of us earned enough yet our tribunal controlled rent was met in full each month from her salary as a lowest of the low civil servant as was the food bill, while the rates, water rates, electric, bottled gas (no mains for us);and phone came off mine as a research assistant.


Over the next twenty to forty years BOTH labour AND Tory alike rubbed their hands with glee as their pathetic tax band threshold increases often half that of inflation ensnared more and more in the tax net, overloading the system with newcomers and allowing all manner of evasion at the top end simply because there are not enough tax men.


Doubling the tax and NI thresholds and putting income tax rates back to the 33% it was when I started work, but leaving me with twice as much tax free would do f**k all to MY tax bill today, cut a swaythe off what it was  when I only earned £35k over the past decade, and remove millions from the taxman's grasping hand.


The other thing you fail to mention is that increase in the tax free band was Nick Clegg's doing. I would willinglybgive it back if I were allowed to cut the f**kers head off for the other things his five years propping Cameron up f**ked us over with.


But the OP also overlooks something of massive importance.


The rise in income tax thresholds has come at the cost of an increase of VAT


A tax that everyone pays at the same level.


I don't call a government that screws you over every penny you spend outside of a food shop, and these days half of what you spend IN one as well, as a friend of the lower paid and unwaged.

Increases in VAT tends to be something that Tory governments do. Heath's government intoroduced it at 8% to please the then EEC. Thatcher's nearly doubled it to 15% to help finance income tax cuts. Labour admittedly increasec it to 17.5%, then the Tories increased it again to 20%. VAT is the Tory tax rise of choice most of the time. Historically at any rate. For it is clear that Johnson is prepared to be different when it suits him.

[Barry]

Talking of Marxist Nutters

[johnofgwent]

The OP raised a second point I do not believe I responded to at the time. The issue of Tax Thresholds.


In my earliest working years, neither I, Moira or anyone in our street paid a penny in Tax as none of us earned enough yet our tribunal controlled rent was met in full each month from her salary as a lowest of the low civil servant as was the food bill, while the rates, water rates, electric, bottled gas (no mains for us);and phone came off mine as a research assistant.


Over the next twenty to forty years BOTH labour AND Tory alike rubbed their hands with glee as their pathetic tax band threshold increases often half that of inflation ensnared more and more in the tax net, overloading the system with newcomers and allowing all manner of evasion at the top end simply because there are not enough tax men.


Doubling the tax and NI thresholds and putting income tax rates back to the 33% it was when I started work, but leaving me with twice as much tax free would do F@@@ all to MY tax bill today, cut a swaythe off what it was  when I only earned £35k over the past decade, and remove millions from the taxman's grasping hand.


The other thing you fail to mention is that increase in the tax free band was Nick Clegg's doing. I would willinglybgive it back if I were allowed to cut the fuckers head off for the other things his five years propping Cameron up fucked us over with.


But the OP also overlooks something of massive importance.


The rise in income tax thresholds has come at the cost of an increase of VAT


A tax that everyone pays at the same level.


I don't call a government that screws you over every penny you spend outside of a food shop, and these days half of what you spend IN one as well, as a friend of the lower paid and unwaged.

[HDQQ]

If the Tories can co-habit with various raging far-right mouthfoamers, then I'd guess Labour can cope with a few marxist nutters.

[Sheepy]

A tory populist

They are not populists though as you are realising, they have been out thought by populists and are so desperate to keep the magic roundabout turning they will try every trick in the book, including pretending they can be a populist, which is a form of defence knowing full well they will turn the blame on populism. It has me in howls of laughter. Throughout history their biggest fear has always been people who are more intelligent than they are. Because they really can see the lunatics are in charge of the asylum.

[srb7677]

If the Labour party could shed its nutty, but often decent left, it would be Tony Blair's social democrat party. But it can't and if it tries to move towards the centre it will find that BoJo is already there.

This is the problem in a nutshell. Though much of the decent left is leaaving Labour of it's own volition.Boris and Starmer want power at any cost and are prepared to say and do anything to get it. Both have a track record of telling porky pies when it suits them. Boris is prepared to be a very untypical Tory whenever he thinks that will go down well. A tory populist. He is so much better at it than Starmer because he is addressing the reality of today whilst Starmer is trying to respond to the reality of 1997, as if nothing has changed since then.

Starmer's is not a recipe for success.

[Sheepy]

Those of us who actually believe in something - whether left, right or centere, are regarded with the utmost suspiciuon by the powers that be.

How true, I was just in the middle of proving that. People with a mind of their own are very scary because they might well step outside the establishment line, or even worse point out their minions are full of it. Because usually they have used psychology on them so they run on fear and panic. All for the greater good of course.

[Borchester]

That'd just whingeing from the sidelines. If Labour could shed its parasitical Left, that uses the party to promote extreme divisive ideas under the banner of socialism, and actually appeal to the many working people (and not the few who think Momentum's the way), it might get the chance to genuinely represent the interests of Working People and their families...

If the Labour party could shed its nutty, but often decent left, it would be Tony Blair's social democrat party. But it can't and if it tries to move towards the centre it will find that BoJo is already there.

What the Labour party really needs is Margaret Thatcher Mark II without the Falklands war. But it ain't going to get it. What is has is Boris who will do whatever it takes to stay PM. And that means he listens to the electorate rather than patting them on the head and reading out the latest communique from the Fourth International, Upper Street Branch

[Thomas]

Before I proceed any further as it will come up, I need to say something that is long overdue. I have in the past referred to Brexiteers as gammons, and often cited a few isolated examples of obviouus idiots as supporting evidence. But the fact remains that you get a few idiots on every side of any argument and they are seldom representative of most people. And for working class people - in view of what I am about to discuss - voting Brexit under the circumstances was a highly rational and sensible decision. I almost chose to myself  and only opted for Remain due to concerns about workers' rights. So I wish to apologise to Cromwell in particular but also to Barry and anyone else here whom I might have maligned in the past by associating them with such a label. I was wrong. And I am sorry. I will also take this opportunity to apologise to Deppity Dawg for having labelled him a racist. As someone who has been accused of racism a lot lately by former comrades for daring to question the wisdom of flooding the UK with cheap migrant labour, I accept that I was wrong to mislabel him in this way myself.

Right, now for the meat of what I am about to say.

25 years ago Labour made the tactical decision to take the working class vote for granted under the assumption that it had nowhere else to go. This was the beginning of a process of disengagement from the working class that led Labour to growing increasingly out of touch with it and before long holding it in contempt. It increasingly focussed on lgbt rights and gender equality issues - which are important - but apparently to the exclusion of issues that affected the wider working class.

It opened the floodgates to cheap labour from eastern Europe, and working class people noticed in sector after sector the collapse in pay rates. This was particularly marked in such trades as builders, plumbers, electricians, and plasterers, but was noticed more widely too. When working class people complained about this they were told by Labour that they were imagining it, which just showed how out of touch the party had become. When they continued to complain about it they were called racists. And regarded with open contempt.

The populist right at least acknowledged the problem, and offered a solution - an end to cheap foreign labour from the EU achieved by Brexit. Under the circumstances voting for Brexit from a working class perspective made total sense. It was the only solution being offered by the only people who recognised the problem. Labour just called them all idiots and gammons, and I offer again my heartfelt apologies for any complicity in that when I was still a member.

I for one have also noticed that since 2010 the Tories, admittedly running with a Lib Dem idea in the beginning, have raised the basic rate tax threshold by which I can now earn a lot more before I start paying tax. Labour opposed that at the time, arguing instead for targeted benefits. I have also noticed that since 2015 the Tories have been raising the minimum wage by much higher percentages than Labour ever did. Then came the talk of levelling up and the backing for Brexit against a Labour party which all too obviously regarded working class Brexiteers as idiots, or at least some of them did. These latter are now in charge of Labour.

Right now with all the shortages, Labour wants to solve the problem by allowing cheap foreign labour back in. The Tories are saying companies need to pay more and invest in their work forces rather than rely on cheap foreign labour. It does not take a genius to figure out which will sound more appealing to the working classes. Labour - the party of cheap foreign labour - versus the Tories, the party of better working class pay.

If this sticks, Labour has lost the working class vote forever and deserves to. And it cannot win without it. There are simply not enough affluent middle class home owning liberals obsessed with identity politics to deliver victory to it.

I think the party is doomed.

brilliant honest post. Totally agree with you steve

[johnofgwent]

Before I proceed any further as it will come up, I need to say something that is long overdue. I have in the past referred to Brexiteers as gammons, and often cited a few isolated examples of obviouus idiots as supporting evidence. But the fact remains that you get a few idiots on every side of any argument and they are seldom representative of most people. And for working class people - in view of what I am about to discuss - voting Brexit under the circumstances was a highly rational and sensible decision. I almost chose to myself  and only opted for Remain due to concerns about workers' rights. So I wish to apologise to Cromwell in particular but also to Barry and anyone else here whom I might have maligned in the past by associating them with such a label. I was wrong. And I am sorry. I will also take this opportunity to apologise to Deppity Dawg for having labelled him a racist. As someone who has been accused of racism a lot lately by former comrades for daring to question the wisdom of flooding the UK with cheap migrant labour, I accept that I was wrong to mislabel him in this way myself.

Right, now for the meat of what I am about to say.

25 years ago Labour made the tactical decision to take the working class vote for granted under the assumption that it had nowhere else to go. This was the beginning of a process of disengagement from the working class that led Labour to growing increasingly out of touch with it and before long holding it in contempt. It increasingly focussed on lgbt rights and gender equality issues - which are important - but apparently to the exclusion of issues that affected the wider working class.

It opened the floodgates to cheap labour from eastern Europe, and working class people noticed in sector after sector the collapse in pay rates. This was particularly marked in such trades as builders, plumbers, electricians, and plasterers, but was noticed more widely too. When working class people complained about this they were told by Labour that they were imagining it, which just showed how out of touch the party had become. When they continued to complain about it they were called racists. And regarded with open contempt.

The populist right at least acknowledged the problem, and offered a solution - an end to cheap foreign labour from the EU achieved by Brexit. Under the circumstances voting for Brexit from a working class perspective made total sense. It was the only solution being offered by the only people who recognised the problem. Labour just called them all idiots and gammons, and I offer again my heartfelt apologies for any complicity in that when I was still a member.

I for one have also noticed that since 2010 the Tories, admittedly running with a Lib Dem idea in the beginning, have raised the basic rate tax threshold by which I can now earn a lot more before I start paying tax. Labour opposed that at the time, arguing instead for targeted benefits. I have also noticed that since 2015 the Tories have been raising the minimum wage by much higher percentages than Labour ever did. Then came the talk of levelling up and the backing for Brexit against a Labour party which all too obviously regarded working class Brexiteers as idiots, or at least some of them did. These latter are now in charge of Labour.

Right now with all the shortages, Labour wants to solve the problem by allowing cheap foreign labour back in. The Tories are saying companies need to pay more and invest in their work forces rather than rely on cheap foreign labour. It does not take a genius to figure out which will sound more appealing to the working classes. Labour - the party of cheap foreign labour - versus the Tories, the party of better working class pay.

If this sticks, Labour has lost the working class vote forever and deserves to. And it cannot win without it. There are simply not enough affluent middle class home owning liberals obsessed with identity politics to deliver victory to it.

I think the party is doomed.

Good god almighty.


Whatever it is you're drinking I want none of it. If I ever get that sober and rational I'll drown myself.


You've certainly got the 25 years ago right.


That would be about the time a chap I knew called Philip went to the Labour party conference and stood at the podium and told Brown to his face what a prize ass he was.


It got him nowhere and I told him it would not but by heaven it did not stop him. I don't know what became of the guy but I doubt the party wanted much to do with him after that.


I remember a post on the old forum from a newcomer of similar intensity to him. He had put together a paper he intended to take to the party to show why just as Maggie had seen the potential of a certain "coterie" of voter so now Labour should embrace them as their natural supporter.


He was referring to the positive army of white van men but it was not until I drove past a new shipping Ng centre being finished and fitted out that I understood fully what he meant.


Parked on the central pedestrian reservation in Newports main through street because there was nowhere else for them to park, about eighty ford transit sized vans in eighty different liveries were abandoned to the mercy of the traffic wardens. They belonged to the army of one man bandsmen hir d in the weakest of contracts to finish the wiring, painting, plastering and shopfinishing of the £90million retail centre that was about to majestically flop


Few of those tradesmen WANTED to be working the way they were. Most had been conned into incorporating by a bait dangled by Brown two years earlier and now here they were forced to be unpaid tax men and vat men etc.


The white paper this chap authored tried to tell labour these men and women were their natural core.


Labour would have none of it.

[srb7677]

Anyway, on the Brightside you have chirped right up since moving on from the Westminster party. They thought they had you for life.

No one ever has me for life. My own principles are more important to me than the shite spouted by politicians of any stripe. I will support them only when they stand by me and what I believe in. When they don't I move on. Which is why I will always be a man of high ideals and principles but never a successful politician. Sadly it seems today that an essential prerequisite to being an effective politician seems to be a principle vacuum in combination with an ability to bullshit like there is no tomorrow. Spin over substance writ large. It is sad to have had to recognise this.

Those of us who actually believe in something - whether left, right or centre, are regarded with the utmost suspicion by the powers that be.

Edited some typos - B

[Sheepy]

Labour is certainly performing in the manner best calculated to minimise his chances of losing.

And the primary reason why Labour will lose is that they have come to be associated with affluent careerists with little connection to most working people and with an excessive fondness for cheap foreign labour as well as woke obsessions.

The Tories are offering optimism at the moment, though as a governing party the onus is upon them to actually deliver.

But more social housing, cheaper rents, better wages and terms and conditions, free education with opportunities for all, an end to rip off prices, is actually a rival potential vision. Most of the policies addressing this in 2017 were popular when polled and Labour lost in spite of them not because of them. I have showed you the polling evidence for that before and can do so again if needs be.

Labour still lost because of open discord, the unpopularity of Corbyn personally amongst older voters especially, and the issue of Brexit. But in spite of all that, and mostly because of a raft of popular policies offering an optimistic vision, 2017 still proved to be the only election since 1997 in which Labour both gained seats and votes. Had Labour had a more popular and effective leader, had it's own MPs and paid staffers not constantly plotted to undermine it, and had Labour refrained from alienating the working class on the issue of Brexit, such an optimistic policy offering could easiliy have won the day.

Keir Starmer promised this to get elected - retention of the popular policies under a more effective leader with a united party behind him. This is why he won the leadership ballot so comprehensively, notwithstanding those such as myself who refused to trust him based upon the company he kept. Unfortunately he has done the exact opposite of what he promised and is offering no optimism at all, just a Blairite rehash which fails to address the problems of today. Most of the working class in the end rejected Blairism.

Anyway, on the Brightside you have chirped right up since moving on from the Westminster party. They thought they had you for life.

[srb7677]

If you hold those views — and don't think my views are necessarily 180º opposed — but express them in that unrelenting litany of faults with UK society in a manifesto, I suggest you're unlikely to win back many of those who rejected Labour in favour of end-of-pier Clown Boris at the last election. 

In fact, I'd say it's still his to lose...

Labour is certainly performing in the manner best calculated to minimise his chances of losing.

And the primary reason why Labour will lose is that they have come to be associated with affluent careerists with little connection to most working people and with an excessive fondness for cheap foreign labour as well as woke obsessions.

The Tories are offering optimism at the moment, though as a governing party the onus is upon them to actually deliver.

But more social housing, cheaper rents, better wages and terms and conditions, free education with opportunities for all, an end to rip off prices, is actually a rival potential vision. Most of the policies addressing this in 2017 were popular when polled and Labour lost in spite of them not because of them. I have showed you the polling evidence for that before and can do so again if needs be.

Labour still lost because of open discord, the unpopularity of Corbyn personally amongst older voters especially, and the issue of Brexit. But in spite of all that, and mostly because of a raft of popular policies offering an optimistic vision, 2017 still proved to be the only election since 1997 in which Labour both gained seats and votes. Had Labour had a more popular and effective leader, had it's own MPs and paid staffers not constantly plotted to undermine it, and had Labour refrained from alienating the working class on the issue of Brexit, such an optimistic policy offering could easiliy have won the day.

Keir Starmer promised this to get elected - retention of the popular policies under a more effective leader with a united party behind him. This is why he won the leadership ballot so comprehensively, notwithstanding those such as myself who refused to trust him based upon the company he kept. Unfortunately he has done the exact opposite of what he promised and is offering no optimism at all, just a Blairite rehash which fails to address the problems of today. Most of the working class in the end rejected Blairism.

[patman post]

I agree with what you say about the working class but do not accept your carricature of socialists like me. I want to make things better for all working people. Yes I want social housing for those who want it, fair and affordable rents for all and not just the very poor, with security of tenure a right. But I also want affordable housing to buy for those who aspire to that without it all being bought up buy by to letters. Yes I want minimum wages set at the level of a living wage, but with full workers rights for all from day one and not just the low paid.

I want free education for all our young people, not just the poorest. I want a society that works for all working people and not just those at the very bottom. The Labour party has become the party of affluent home owning middle class liberals and therein lies the problem. It doesnt really care that much for anyone who does not think like them. But I also recognise that many millions are struggling under the current economic status quo which has long since ceased to work for them. Many working people are struggling to line the pockets of others, especially landlords charging very high rents because they can. In creating a better society for all, such things need to be challenged head on. If you want to see that as divisive claptrap then you are an obstacle to necessary change.

And what you carricature as far left was simply a social democratic manifesto aiming for a fairer society as already exists in much of western Europe. What is far left about free education, as we once had? What is far left about building more council houses? What is far left about a decent minimum wage, or reasonable rents mandated by law? We used to have the latter within living memory. What is far left about public ownership of the railways and essential utilities? It already exists in most other western modern capitalist economies bar the USA.

To carricature this as far left just demonstrates how far right you have moved. I agree people need a bit of optimism. But that also extends to all those millions of struggling people with little to be optimistic about right now. That Labour has abandomed them, and us, is obvious. But please don't make me out to be some kind of far left extremist because I still believe in making life better for struggling working people, even if that means reining in the abilty of greedy landlords to rip them off just because the market lets them, and challenginging vested interests generally for the good of the majority.

If you hold those views — and don't think my views are necessarily 180º opposed — but express them in that unrelenting litany of faults with UK society in a manifesto, I suggest you're unlikely to win back many of those who rejected Labour in favour of end-of-pier Clown Boris at the last election. 

In fact, I'd say it's still his to lose...