Re: Stupid answers

[srb7677]

if we are all british , then why dont we speak british? You arent telling me im english are you?

You have encouraged me to continue although I have little to add beyond what I have already said, little of of which you actually refute when you get down to the bare bones of it, whilst I myself am not exactly arguing with most of what you are saying.

As for not speaking British, there is no such language as we both fully well know. Which is why no one speaks it. I also understand the historical reasons why the Irish and the Scots mostly speak English, but the fact that they do clearly demonstrates nevertheless that nationhood is not dependent upon language. And a good job too because if it were your cause would be well fecked. The dominant language in Canada, the USA, Australia, and New Zealand is also English, and also for historical reasons. Yet all four are clearly independent states, one of them a superpower.

As for Britain, the reason quite a lot of people refer to their nationality as British might well be down to stupidity in a few cases. Every nation after all has it's idiots, no doubt you have a few up there. But in most cases what is happening when intelligent people refer to their nationality as British is quite simply  - as I have already said - that the word is being used as shorthand for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. And people who do this are almost invariably believers in the union that they feel themselves to be part of.

Just as France and Italy are made up of different ethnic mixes who until recent history spoke their own dialects, but were subsumed under the more all encompasing nationalities of French and Italian, so do many unionists see the UK. They believe in the wider UK as a nation that they adhere to that is bigger than it's component parts. When they describe themselves as British this is what they mean. I fully understand that this is never going to sit well with a Scottish nationalist wanting an independent Scotland, because you have already rejected the union as any kind of acceptable national entity to which you owe any kind of allegience. So for you when unionists speak of being British - by which they mostly mean a UK national - they are from your perspective holding an allegiance to something you choose not to recognise as a legitimate nation because you reject Scotland's part in it. The fact that they have a different sense of nationhood that encompasses the whole UK does not make them stupid just because your allegiences are different.

As for calling themselves British, I can tell you that it is a common view in England that Northern Ireland is a place apart, with it's own political parties, not fully accepted as part of the union nation state of the UK as Scotland and Wales are. It is the union excluding Northern Ireland that many believe in, ie the part that is geographically British. These will be forced to reassess how they think and feel if and when Scotland departs. But until then thinking of themselves as British is legitimate enough and does not make them idiots just for believing in a union that you reject.

And since the English language has come up, and though you probably already know this, I should of course point out that English itself is far from being an ancient language. It didn't exist a thousand years ago. The area of modern day England was even further back in pre-Roman times mostly inhabited by Celts speaking a variety of Celtic languages. The Romans came and took over down here, introducing Latin as a written language and the language of the ruling elites, which tended to persist for many centuries after the Romans left. Most of the common people though still spoke their native celtic tongues. At around the time the Romans left, the people widely regarded as the true ancestors of the English, the Anglo Saxons, came from Northwest Europe and seized most of the territory of England over the course of a couple of centuries. The native celts were either pushed westwards into the celtic fringes of Wales and Cornwall or were enslaved by these new Germanic invaders who began to arrive in some numbers. The Welsh language still alive today is thus far older than English which still did not exist. Because the Anglo Saxons themselves were not English speakers but had their own Germanic tongues. Other waves of invaders in later centuries mostly hailing from Scandinavia also had influence upon the pre-English germanic tongues.

Then came the Normans who were themselves former Scandinavian invaders of Normandy, but who by 1066 spoke French. That year was a pivotal moment in the history of England, because it was the year in which a French speaking Norman elite successfully invaded and conquered England and rapidly supplanted the Anglo Saxon ruling elites. From this point on England had an entirely French speaking ruling class whilst the rest of the people spoke their own Anglo Saxon tongues. But both rulers and ruled needed to be able to communicate with each other and over the course of the next couple of centuries, the Anglo Saxon tongues merged with French to create an entirely new language. English. But the English language cannot be said to have emerged in any kind of recognisable form until at least the 13th century.

All of which again tends to demonstrate that nationhood does not depend upon language, though nations can - and often do - of course form around common languages.

[Streetwalker]

Dumbest answers ever on Family Feud! Steve Harvey is stunned! - YouTube

[Thomas]

come on steve the discussion was just getting interesting.

I missed our last wee talk about history and culture

[Thomas]

This is not a mod notice

But why is everybody so grumpy? The comment made Steve was accompanied by a smiley Thomas pulled me because I made a comment about flavourless and stupid yanks.

Lighten up everybody it's the season of goodwill  got all year to dig at each other.

Smile F F S

no one is being grumpy  , just having a bit of fun pulling"british " peoples legs cromwell.

[Thomas]

The Irish don't speak Irish but are still a sovereign nation.

but thats pretty weak and limp to be fair steve , when quite clearly , the irish have a native language.......its called irish , and the reason their native language , just like my countires native language , isnt the lingua franca of ireland today is the fact ireland was ruled from westmisnter largely on and off for the best part of 800 years , and the north east part is still part of the uk , and the english language ( not british funnily enough ) has been cumpulsory for irish children to learn for centuries. ( along with other reasons we dont need to go into)

Meanwhile , the uk is a soveriegn multi national state , has never been ruled since its inception in 1707 ( or even 1603 if you include the monarchial union)by foreigners , has had plenty of time to introduce british , yet doesnt , in favour of one nations native language....england.

Its not difficult to see the basic ingredients of nationhood that the irish french and many other countries have ( France has differnet languages too , but french is the lingua franca) that "britian" doesnt all adds up to rubish this imaginary country that doesnt exist exist in the wild imagination of a few.

You wish Scotland to be so too, though almost all of you speak English as your first language.

We do , and we can talk of the reason why if you like, but the point is , if we are all british , then why dont we speak british? You arent telling me im english are you?

You are saying we are british ,yet no one speaks british.

So nationhood is clearly not absolutely defined by language.

Dont agree .Scotland has its own native language too , just as england ireland and wales and many other countries do.

Britain doesnt.

I can't think of many if any ccountries , or nations if you like ,who dont have an existing native language even if they are dying out. We understand in the globlised world languages are disappearing in favour of chinese american english and spainish , but my point is one of the key factors that is missing in the myth of britian is language , the british dont have one.

This is most fortunate for Switzerland which has three of them.

...and england to my knowledge had numerous languages spoken within its realm , both historically and in the past. Cornish , cumbrian , danish , norman french and so on.

The key point is , the people who call themselves english and identify with that country have a native language , but the mythical country britian doesnt.

Switzerlands history is unique to the uk in the fact unitl relatively recently it was owned and popualted by neighbouring countires and ethnic groups. I can see switzerland the country on a map , can you point out where britiain is ?

I fully accept that the island of Britain is not a nation.

Then what are you discussing with me? Its not a country nation or homogenous popualtion , you seem to be constantly bringing up a list of stuff the backs my stance while still trying to argue with what im saying?

But the actual name of the union as it exists today is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Thats correct. So what are you  , again saying? See the part called northern ireland that isnt in britian?

A bit of a mouthful really, so people who support the union often just tend to refer to it as Britain because it is easier.

I think that has to be one of the most puerile excuses yet. Saying uk is far more reflective of reality and two letters is easier than an eight letter two syllable word. Talk about desperate straw clutching steve.

To try and portray that as a sign of stupidity is overhyping it.

...and yet its ok to do that withthe yanks eh?

The yanks for all thier fault can point out their country on a map ( well most of them anyway) yet so far i havent met a british person who can show me where this mythical country britian is?

is it a bit like atlantis or something?

[Barry]

This is not a mod notice

But why is everybody so grumpy? The comment made Steve was accompanied by a smiley Thomas pulled me because I made a comment about flavourless and stupid yanks.

Lighten up everybody it's the season of goodwill  got all year to dig at each other.

Smile F F S

OK

[srb7677]

Further , why dont the british speak british the way germans speak german , french speak french and so on?

The Irish don't speak Irish but are still a sovereign nation. You wish Scotland to be so too, though almost all of you speak English as your first language. So nationhood is clearly not absolutely defined by language. This is most fortunate for Switzerland which has three of them.

I fully accept that the island of Britain is not a nation. But the actual name of the union as it exists today is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. A bit of a mouthful really, so people who support the union often just tend to refer to it as Britain because it is easier. To try and portray that as a sign of stupidity is overhyping it.

[cromwell]

This is not a mod notice

But why is everybody so grumpy? The comment made Steve was accompanied by a smiley Thomas pulled me because I made a comment about flavourless and stupid yanks.

Lighten up everybody it's the season of goodwill  got all year to dig at each other.

Smile F F S

[srb7677]

There's no such country as Uraguay.

Clearly a typo...

[Thomas]

You mean it was a bit like flavorless

ones american english , the other plymouth english.

Barry might have a meltdown if i start posting in scots english. Or if moray starts on the doric.

Or  i pads and smell checkers.

its like that auld joke cromwell. The inventor of predictive text has just died.

His funfair is on sundial.

[Barry]

You mean it was a bit like flavorless

Stupid answers. 

[cromwell]

You got Uganda right.
There's no such country as Uraguay.
1 out of 2 is not too bad.

You mean it was a bit like flavorless  

[Thomas]

You got Uganda right.
There's no such country as Uraguay.
1 out of 2 is not too bad.

grammar nazis really is muck raking of the lowest order. I think we all realised what steve meant.

[Barry]

Do they not know of the existence of google? Without consulting google I can come up with Uganda and Uraguay.

You got Uganda right.
There's no such country as Uraguay.
1 out of 2 is not too bad. 

[Thomas]

Well this all started with an off topic but fun post of SW's answering coming for Camelot in the news thread.
More interesting than Camelot thread as well.

Well a hope no yanks watch that video of the yookay. What will they be thinking of the natives.?