Why don't we have a right to properly defend ourselves?

[johnofgwent]

Tony Martin shot burglars. "The case attracted huge public attention, with his supporters casting him as a man taking a stand to defend his home and others seeing him as a violent eccentric who turned vigilante."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-49355814

This type of death is common in the USA.

Tony Martin lay in wait with a deadly weapon and shot the burglars before they presented a threat to life and limb.

His crime was not succeeding in killing both and allowing one to get away. Given the remoteness of the location had he succeeded, dug a big hole with a JCB and dumped them in it who would ever have known.

I have made reference in earlier fora to the Cambridge Rapist and to BBC News footage of the behaviour of Cambridgeshire farmers filmed by news crews and transmitted in the nine o clock news. Farmers took to lying in wait, fully dressed, in the darkened downstairs rooms in their homes with loaded, broken, shotguns in their laps as they sat in wait for a break in.

No policemen acted against them for so doing.

But farmers are generally Tories ...

[Barry]

Was he a farmer? Perhaps he was - I seem to remember that he was out in the countryside somewhere.

Tony Martin shot burglars. "The case attracted huge public attention, with his supporters casting him as a man taking a stand to defend his home and others seeing him as a violent eccentric who turned vigilante."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-49355814

This type of death is common in the USA. 

[T00ts]

Are you thinking about the farmer?

Was he a farmer? Perhaps he was - I seem to remember that he was out in the countryside somewhere.

[cromwell]

All a bit too gory for my taste JoG though I suppose you never know until violence visits you what you are capable of .  There (I can't believe I forgot about this )

There used to be a Dwarf lived along the road . He was a mad Palace fan as well who was well up for it . Anyone ,and I mean anyone who disturbed the peace , shouted at their Mrs  or just wanted a fight and the Dwarf was your man . I tell you a screaming dwarf  flying at you and you can be tooled up with anything you like there  is only going to be one result

Really nice fella apart from that , think he moved down your way

Did he stand at the front on matchdays or sit on your shoulders?

[Nick]

Who was that chap who shot an intruder in his house a few years back? I guess the problem is if the good and the bad can carry arms of any kind how do we differentiate between them? It would be pointless me carry anything much - they would simply knock me over. If I had a knife would I bring myself to use it? I suspect not.

Are you thinking about the farmer?

[Streetwalker]

At no point am I prevented from stabbing through the eye into the brain with a screwdriver, smashing the head with a crowbar, or if needs must, a shovel, or removing body parts using a freezer knife.

I am content.

All a bit too gory for my taste JoG though I suppose you never know until violence visits you what you are capable of .  There (I cant believe I forgot about this )

There used to be a Dwarf lived along the road . He was a mad Palace fan as well who was well up for it . Anyone ,and I mean anyone who disturbed the peace , shouted at their Mrs  or just wanted a fight and the Dwarf was your man . I tell you a screaming dwarf  flying at you and you can be tooled up with anything you like there  is only going to be one result 

Really nice fella apart from that , think he moved down your way 

[cromwell]

Looked again Baz,this from the college of policing

https://www.college.police.uk/article/possession-dangerous-items-banned-homes

And from that link this

In an effort to tackle violent crime, a ban on a wide range of knives, weapons and firearms came into force from 14 July. 
This means that some articles that were previously legal to own in the home are now illegal. It's now an offence to keep items such as knuckledusters, flick knives, throwing stars, zombie knives, telescopic truncheons and push daggers in your home.
The law will also change on safe retailing for buying knives in store and online. This provision will commence later in the year.
Read more: Offensive Weapons Act 2019 bans the possession of dangerous items in private(opens an external website in the same tab)

Download

So it seems you cannot own a collapsible baton in your home never mind as in your op.

[cromwell]

From your link:

Which weapons can you no longer possess?

Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 provides that it is an offence to manufacture, sell or hire, offer for sale or hire, expose or have in his possession [highlight]for the purpose of sale or hire of or lending or giving to any other person certain specified weapons.[/highlight]

Here is a full list:

A knuckleduster, that is, a band of metal or other hard material worn on one or more fingers, and designed to cause injury, and any weapon incorporating a knuckleduster.

A swordstick, that is, a hollow walking-stick or cane containing a blade which may be used as a sword.
'Handclaw'- being a band of metal or other hard material from which a number of sharp spikes protrude, and worn around the hand.

'Belt buckle knife'- being a buckle, which incorporates or conceals a knife.

'Push dagger', being a knife, the handle of which fits within a clenched fist and the blade of which protrudes from between two fingers.

'Hollow kubotan', being a cylindrical container containing a number of sharp spikes.

'Footclaw', being a bar of metal or other hard material from which a number of sharp spikes protrude, and worn strapped to the foot.

'Shuriken', 'shaken' or 'death star', being a hard, non-flexible plate having three or more sharp radiating points and designed to be thrown.

'Balisong' or 'butterfly knife', being a blade enclosed by its handle, which is designed to split down the middle, without the operation of a spring or other mechanical means, to reveal the blade.

'Telescopic truncheon', being a truncheon which extends automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to its handle.

'Blowpipe' or 'blow gun', being a hollow tube out of which hard pellets or darts are shot by the use of breath.

'Kusari gama', being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a sickle.

'Kyoketsu shoge', being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a hooked knife.

'Manrikigusari' or 'kusari', being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at each end to a hard weight or hand grip.

A disguised knife, that is any knife which has a concealed blade or concealed sharp point and is designed to appear to be an everyday object of a kind commonly carried on the person or in a handbag, briefcase, or other hand luggage.

A stealth knife, that is a knife or spike, which has a blade, or sharp point, made from a material that is not readily detectable by apparatus used for detecting metal and which is not designed for domestic use or for use in the processing, preparation or consumption of food or as a toy.

A straight, side-handled or friction-lock truncheon (sometimes known as a baton).

A sword with a curved blade of 50 centimetres or over in length; and for the purposes of this sub-paragraph, the length of the blade shall be the straight line distance from the top of the handle to the tip of the blade.

"Zombie knife", "zombie killer knife" or "zombie slayer knife", being a blade with — (i) a cutting edge; (ii) a serrated edge; and (iii) images or words (whether on the blade or handle) that suggest that it is to be used for the purpose of violence.

"Cyclone knife" or "spiral knife", being a weapon with — (i) a handle; (ii) a blade with two or more cutting edges, each of which forms a helix; and (ii) a sharp point at the end of the blade
---------------------------------------------------------
From that I understand you can have any of those weapons in your own house for your own use. Am I right?

I'd never heard of some of them. Humans are so inventive!

Must be me Baz I read it that you are no longer to hold privately those items in your own home nothing to do with manufacture or rent of them or hire,will need to look into this more.

[johnofgwent]

From your link:

Which weapons can you no longer possess?

Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 provides that it is an offence to manufacture, sell or hire, offer for sale or hire, expose or have in his possession [highlight]for the purpose of sale or hire of or lending or giving to any other person certain specified weapons.[/highlight]

Here is a full list:

A knuckleduster, that is, a band of metal or other hard material worn on one or more fingers, and designed to cause injury, and any weapon incorporating a knuckleduster.

A swordstick, that is, a hollow walking-stick or cane containing a blade which may be used as a sword.
'Handclaw'- being a band of metal or other hard material from which a number of sharp spikes protrude, and worn around the hand.

'Belt buckle knife'- being a buckle, which incorporates or conceals a knife.

'Push dagger', being a knife, the handle of which fits within a clenched fist and the blade of which protrudes from between two fingers.

'Hollow kubotan', being a cylindrical container containing a number of sharp spikes.

'Footclaw', being a bar of metal or other hard material from which a number of sharp spikes protrude, and worn strapped to the foot.

'Shuriken', 'shaken' or 'death star', being a hard, non-flexible plate having three or more sharp radiating points and designed to be thrown.

'Balisong' or 'butterfly knife', being a blade enclosed by its handle, which is designed to split down the middle, without the operation of a spring or other mechanical means, to reveal the blade.

'Telescopic truncheon', being a truncheon which extends automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to its handle.

'Blowpipe' or 'blow gun', being a hollow tube out of which hard pellets or darts are shot by the use of breath.

'Kusari gama', being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a sickle.

'Kyoketsu shoge', being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a hooked knife.

'Manrikigusari' or 'kusari', being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at each end to a hard weight or hand grip.

A disguised knife, that is any knife which has a concealed blade or concealed sharp point and is designed to appear to be an everyday object of a kind commonly carried on the person or in a handbag, briefcase, or other hand luggage.

A stealth knife, that is a knife or spike, which has a blade, or sharp point, made from a material that is not readily detectable by apparatus used for detecting metal and which is not designed for domestic use or for use in the processing, preparation or consumption of food or as a toy.

A straight, side-handled or friction-lock truncheon (sometimes known as a baton).

A sword with a curved blade of 50 centimetres or over in length; and for the purposes of this sub-paragraph, the length of the blade shall be the straight line distance from the top of the handle to the tip of the blade.

"Zombie knife", "zombie killer knife" or "zombie slayer knife", being a blade with — (i) a cutting edge; (ii) a serrated edge; and (iii) images or words (whether on the blade or handle) that suggest that it is to be used for the purpose of violence.

"Cyclone knife" or "spiral knife", being a weapon with — (i) a handle; (ii) a blade with two or more cutting edges, each of which forms a helix; and (ii) a sharp point at the end of the blade
---------------------------------------------------------
From that I understand you can have any of those weapons in your own house for your own use. Am I right?

I'd never heard of some of them. Humans are so inventive!

At no point am I prevented from stabbing through the eye into the brain with a screwdriver, smashing the head with a crowbar, or if needs must, a shovel, or removing body parts using a freezer knife.

I am content. 

[johnofgwent]

Do not, under any circumstances, pursue a fleeing thug while carrying a weapon. When you catch up with them, they will find a fear of being imprisoned gives them a most useful second wind.

The most recent case round here was a bloke who took a screwdriver and pursued a thug. I think there were thirty stab wounds in his liver alone. A very nasty way to bleed to death. It hurts, and takes ages.

[Barry]

Batons and knives definitely not,an excuse for Herbert's to carry them,however your home is your castle,or is it?

Pretty much unnoticed old Pritti has introduced measures to stop you having a weapon to defend or hold in your own home.
https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/national/uk-today/19444824.now-illegal-weapons-home/



Some I see why but all? No ......anyone here have something handy in case some knobs invade your house,I do.

From your link:

Which weapons can you no longer possess?

Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 provides that it is an offence to manufacture, sell or hire, offer for sale or hire, expose or have in his possession [highlight]for the purpose of sale or hire of or lending or giving to any other person certain specified weapons.[/highlight]

Here is a full list:

A knuckleduster, that is, a band of metal or other hard material worn on one or more fingers, and designed to cause injury, and any weapon incorporating a knuckleduster.

A swordstick, that is, a hollow walking-stick or cane containing a blade which may be used as a sword.
'Handclaw'- being a band of metal or other hard material from which a number of sharp spikes protrude, and worn around the hand.

'Belt buckle knife'- being a buckle, which incorporates or conceals a knife.

'Push dagger', being a knife, the handle of which fits within a clenched fist and the blade of which protrudes from between two fingers.

'Hollow kubotan', being a cylindrical container containing a number of sharp spikes.

'Footclaw', being a bar of metal or other hard material from which a number of sharp spikes protrude, and worn strapped to the foot.

'Shuriken', 'shaken' or 'death star', being a hard, non-flexible plate having three or more sharp radiating points and designed to be thrown.

'Balisong' or 'butterfly knife', being a blade enclosed by its handle, which is designed to split down the middle, without the operation of a spring or other mechanical means, to reveal the blade.

'Telescopic truncheon', being a truncheon which extends automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to its handle.

'Blowpipe' or 'blow gun', being a hollow tube out of which hard pellets or darts are shot by the use of breath.

'Kusari gama', being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a sickle.

'Kyoketsu shoge', being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a hooked knife.

'Manrikigusari' or 'kusari', being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at each end to a hard weight or hand grip.

A disguised knife, that is any knife which has a concealed blade or concealed sharp point and is designed to appear to be an everyday object of a kind commonly carried on the person or in a handbag, briefcase, or other hand luggage.

A stealth knife, that is a knife or spike, which has a blade, or sharp point, made from a material that is not readily detectable by apparatus used for detecting metal and which is not designed for domestic use or for use in the processing, preparation or consumption of food or as a toy.

A straight, side-handled or friction-lock truncheon (sometimes known as a baton).

A sword with a curved blade of 50 centimetres or over in length; and for the purposes of this sub-paragraph, the length of the blade shall be the straight line distance from the top of the handle to the tip of the blade.

"Zombie knife", "zombie killer knife" or "zombie slayer knife", being a blade with — (i) a cutting edge; (ii) a serrated edge; and (iii) images or words (whether on the blade or handle) that suggest that it is to be used for the purpose of violence.

"Cyclone knife" or "spiral knife", being a weapon with — (i) a handle; (ii) a blade with two or more cutting edges, each of which forms a helix; and (ii) a sharp point at the end of the blade
---------------------------------------------------------
From that I understand you can have any of those weapons in your own house for your own use. Am I right?

I'd never heard of some of them. Humans are so inventive!

[johnofgwent]

I've said what I'm going to say here before

We do have the aforementioned right.

I have used it to gravely injure, to the point of near death, and then leave said injur d person not caring if they live or die, several times in the past when thuggish or drunken brawling brawling men have chosen to assail me instead of fleeing.

The moment you, the householder or legal resident of a property find your right to quiet enjoyment of same disturbed by violent individuals apparently intent on doing you harm, you have the absolute right to defend yourself, all the way up to killing them.

The law simply requires that you honestly believe the assailant is coming at you intent on harm. That's enough. You are allowed to over react hugely because the law recognises that a citizen unaccustomed to having to do this on a daily basis, terrified that their would be assailant will injure, maim or kill them, will react violently and unthinkingly out of sheer terror.

And terrifying it was.  

Yes, policemen demanded I explain myself

To date "I walked through my front door / out onto my back lawn and this bastard / these three bastard's turned, saw me / me and my neighbour who lives in the upstairs flat and charged at us with the jemmy / hammer / axe you see on the floor there so I had to pick up that pickaxe handle / monkey wrench / crowbar and hit him till he stopped moving as I thought if I gave him half a chance he'd kill me" has worked very well. But the last case was about two decades ago.

[Streetwalker]

Batons and knives definitely not,an excuse for Herbert's to carry them,however your home is your castle,or is it?

Pretty much unnoticed old Pritti has introduced measures to stop you having a weapon to defend or hold in your own home.
https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/national/uk-today/19444824.now-illegal-weapons-home/



Some I see why but all? No ......anyone here have something handy in case some knobs invade your house,I do.

In your own home is completely different and  I see why Patel wants to be able to stop people being anywhere near certain types of weapons in case the cretins take them out to play .

Everyone has something in the home for protection or for administering homeowner justice though doing all you can security wise deters all but the most determined who aren't going to go to the trouble to see what Ive got . 

The opportunist crack head is more common in these parts but as I say easily deterred with decent locks and bolts 

[Sampanviking]

Actually we do, but if we are attacked, we can only use as much force as is necessary to prevent the attack, which may include killing the attacker.

I was chatting to my son about this. We seem to have signed over our defence to the police to look after us when we are attacked. The trouble is, they are not there when we want them, are they?

Why can't people carry pepper spray to repel an attack? Why can't we carry a knife to repel an attack, or a baton of some sort.
I'm not suggesting we want to be armed with guns, but my son said if he lived in America, he would buy one. He's the most peaceful chap on the planet.

My question is, why can't law abiding people carry pepper spray, a baton or a knife, in case they are attacked, or to defend someone else being attacked on our streets? Would you carry a weapon of defence, if you were allowed to?

Well we have been fully disarmed by the law over the last hundred years or so. Before then arms were part of the accoutrement of the gentleman.
Yes we have handed our safety over to the State in the form of the Police Force, the trouble is, as you say, they are never there when needed and when they do arrive, they most often simply act as recorders of crime for statistical purposes rather than seem interested in actually finding and prosecuting the perpetrator(s) unless you already have a water tight case for them.

Should we return to the old days when personal security was the responsibility of the person? It carries a romantic appeal, but as we see in the states, it has quickly just looks ugly in reality.
The big issue here, is that notions and practices developed in the ancient past when most lived in large family groups that were often considerable distances from the nearest neighbours do not really serve the purpose when many now are alone and isolated and living in High Density Urbanisation.

Old societal boundaries and support structures are now gone and for many people, there is only a direct relationship between them and the state, with little, if anything, in between.
It is probably better that the carrying of weapons is a criminal act and that the simply act of carrying them denotes criminality and criminal intent.

Further, I do not believe that it is the lack of being armed that leads to the vulnerability of the law abiding to crime, but to many other institutional failings in our "Liberal" society that reduces the rights of the law abiding to being simply that of "victimhood". I personally do not think this is good enough and that society should insist in a more robust form of policing against those that are known to be the problem and that no form of political correctness or woke sensitivity should be permitted to form an obstacle in so doing.

[cromwell]

No I wouldnt carry a weapon . I dont really see myself in  any situation that would require one .

Batons and knives definitely not,an excuse for Herbert's to carry them,however your home is your castle,or is it?

Pretty much unnoticed old Pritti has introduced measures to stop you having a weapon to defend or hold in your own home.
https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/national/uk-today/19444824.now-illegal-weapons-home/



Some I see why but all? No ......anyone here have something handy in case some knobs invade your house,I do.