Is anyone surprised? Ukraine invaded

[Good old]

I think you are applying a double standard.  I would say equally, the west is frightened of Ukraine rejecting the EU / NATO agenda, and not being able to dominate them.  The problem is not NATO invading the whole of Russia in one foul swoop, it's about gradual expansion.  Ukraine should remain neutral.

There is no double standard. For a start the EU/NATO, have not said to Ukraine, it's our way or no way.. Its not NATO that has invaded a sovereign state just to force it out of not wanting to make its own decisions . It's not possible NATO would gradually expand into Russia.The only change in Russia, would only ever be internal, and it wouldn't need NATO.
Putin, is going to dominate Ukraine, that's near to certain. But if he ever was actually concerned by NATO. He will have more reason in future . Not because the west will  be planing to invade him but because , he has made the mistake of playing far to many cards for little gain ,if any .In fact he might think he has  outwitted the west.but it's most likely this will only force the west to take more measures than ever to protect against him.
The west will up its defensive stance, he has awakened the German giant, at last it stirs , because it knows it can not trust him or his motives, he has put his economy under extreme pressure, . Ukraine, can never be truly neutral, it has to live and live by its own will. When Putin ,says neutral he means under the same terms as the Russian people and kept as a potential battle field.

[Barry]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/soldiers-who-stood-ground-against-russian-warship-to-be-named-heroes-of-ukraine-3585845

According to this they did . And thirteen Ukrainians died whilst telling them to clear off using the F word . May they rest in peace , and their murderers never rest.

You see, the reason I asked the question, was because I smelled a big propaganda rat. And you fell for it, hook line and sinker. Killed them off and RIP'd them.

Do not fear.
They are back from the dead.

https://www.euronews.com/2022/02/28/ukraine-war-snake-island-border-guards-are-alive-and-well-says-ukrainian-navy

[Scott777]

So what do you believe Scott Putin is badly treated and thought of?

Not everyone in the media is casting the west as the goodies.

The black and white scenario is typical of the media.  They like sensation and conflict.  They call the west the goodies when it suits them, and the baddies otherwise, a double standard.  I think Putin may be no better than the Bidens, Borises, Macrons, Trudeaus, but without him, we will be one step closer to the one world government.  For example, take away RT, and the western corporatist media have less opposition.

[Scott777]

The reason he gives is an excuse. He isn't frightened of NATO. He is frightened of his people getting a sniff of the western way of life on their doorstep and having a problem continuing to dominate them without question.
No one , NATO or anyone else is going to invade that landmass. It's an imagined threat from NATO  And he knows it. The only time NATO threatens him is when he steps over a line that NATO will defend. It's debatable that NATO is in a fit state to defend its members countries adequately let alone invade the Russian state.
Only if he was a Bear  would he not need reason or excuse. But he is not a Bear so no matter his reason he has no excuse, and his so called reason is wrong by all human standards.

I think you are applying a double standard.  I would say equally, the west is frightened of Ukraine rejecting the EU / NATO agenda, and not being able to dominate them.  The problem is not NATO invading the whole of Russia in one foul swoop, it's about gradual expansion.  Ukraine should remain neutral.

[cromwell]

I thought I was saying that. I do agree . It doesn't stop him keep making them though.

Yeah I was agreeing 

When all the western corporatist media are telling us Putin is the baddie and the west are the goodies, and when people like George Soros agree, I know exactly what NOT to believe.  It makes it quite simple, really.

So what do you believe Scott Putin is badly treated and thought of?

Not everyone in the media is casting the west as the goodies.

[Good old]

No he's run out of any excuses.

I thought I was saying that. I do agree . It doesn't stop him keep making them though.

[Scott777]

Yes these are simply my guesses, but I think they reflect reality far closer then the mindless rubbish put out by the British Bullshit Corp and others.
Some of its blatant propaganda has been utterly ridiculous and actually insulting if we are expected to believe it.

When all the western corporatist media are telling us Putin is the baddie and the west are the goodies, and when people like George Soros agree, I know exactly what NOT to believe.  It makes it quite simple, really.

[cromwell]

Typical!
I go away on holiday for a few days and it all kicks off the moment I get there and I have no internet!
Anyway, I see many pages have been added and I have not had time to read them, so apologies if I am repeating points made by others.
All I have had is the propaganda bilge spewed out by the BBC and other MSM
The MSM response looks as if it has been preprogrammed for two response modes
Response 1 - Russia overruns all targets - Putin threat
Response 2 - Russia makes slow progress - Putin joke

My take on the situation on the ground.
1) This Special Military Operation is not a Blitzkrieg. We know this because; as the media itself has said, between only a third and a half of the Russian forces have actually been committed to fight across the border and there has been very little use of its heavy artillery and airpower.
Combine this with comments about liberating the Russian speaking areas, the stated objectives of "demilitarising and denazisfying" Ukraine, plus claims that no Ukrainian territory will be taken.

Clearly then if the Russians are looking to liberate compatriot territories and cities, this will not be achieved by bombing them flat, hence the slow circumspection of the operation.
The far right brigades, such as Right Sector and the Azov Brigade, now incorporated into the Ukrainian army are some of the best equipped and are deliberately deployed in areas such as Kharkov and nearby regions.
The Russian objective, it seems quite clear is to destroy these units without causing significant collateral damage. It will be slow work, but Russia has no need to rush.
I think the near total lack of combat footage and Ukrainian military casualty figures supports this assessment.

2) This is clearly not a full Invasion of Ukraine as all the activity is taking place in those areas which are former Russian territories with Russian forming the majority of the population.
Even the Kiev operation looks as much part of a large encirclement along the banks the Dnieper River to completely isolate and then destroy the bulk of the Ukrainian army trapped in the resultant cauldron, assuming that most do not look to get out before the trap is closed.

3) If there is a subsequent offensive into central and Western Ukraine, this will be a repeat of the Georgian operation which simply destroyed military infrastructure before returning to Russian controlled territory.

4) The Eastern territories will not be classed as Ukraine and will be recognised as Independent republics, probably with a view to incorporation into the Russian Federation. The rump of actual Ukraine will be left unoccupied.

5) Take quick hit sanctions to which they can stand, roll with and recover from equally quickly, while pilling on long term pain on EU via massive refugee crisis, possibly escalated by full energy embargoe.

Yes these are simply my guesses, but I think they reflect reality far closer then the mindless rubbish put out by the British Bullshit Corp and others.
Some of its blatant propaganda has been utterly ridiculous and actually insulting if we are expected to believe it.

I think you need to give your head a wobble,I think you're a decent bloke but everything reported is not propaganda.

Up to you but maybe catch up on the threads.

The reason he gives is an excuse. He isn't frightened of NATO. He is frightened of his people getting a sniff of the western way of life on their doorstep and having a problem continuing to dominate them without question.
No one , NATO or anyone else is going to invade that landmass. It's an imagined threat from NATO  And he knows it. The only time NATO threatens him is when he steps over a line that NATO will defend. It's debatable that NATO is in a fit state to defend its members countries adequately let alone invade the Russian state.
Only if he was a Bear  would he not need reason or excuse. But he is not a Bear so no matter his reason he has no excuse, and his so called reason is wrong by all human standards.

No he's run out of any excuses.

[Good old]

Maybe not a right, or an excuse, but still a reason.  A bear doesn't need a right to rip your head off.  Nor does it need to be excused.  It just needs a reason.  It seems to be to defend the threat of NATO, which is exactly as expected.

The reason he gives is an excuse. He isn't frightened of NATO. He is frightened of his people getting a sniff of the western way of life on their doorstep and having a problem continuing to dominate them without question.
No one , NATO or anyone else is going to invade that landmass. It's an imagined threat from NATO  And he knows it. The only time NATO threatens him is when he steps over a line that NATO will defend. It's debatable that NATO is in a fit state to defend its members countries adequately let alone invade the Russian state. 
Only if he was a Bear  would he not need reason or excuse. But he is not a Bear so no matter his reason he has no excuse, and his so called reason is wrong by all human standards. 

[Sampanviking]

Typical!
I go away on holiday for a few days and it all kicks off the moment I get there and I have no internet!
Anyway, I see many pages have been added and I have not had time to read them, so apologies if I am repeating points made by others.
All I have had is the propaganda bilge spewed out by the BBC and other MSM
The MSM response looks as if it has been preprogrammed for two response modes
Response 1 - Russia overruns all targets - Putin threat
Response 2 - Russia makes slow progress - Putin joke

My take on the situation on the ground.
1) This Special Military Operation is not a Blitzkrieg. We know this because; as the media itself has said, between only a third and a half of the Russian forces have actually been committed to fight across the border and there has been very little use of its heavy artillery and airpower.
Combine this with comments about liberating the Russian speaking areas, the stated objectives of "demilitarising and denazisfying" Ukraine, plus claims that no Ukrainian territory will be taken.

Clearly then if the Russians are looking to liberate compatriot territories and cities, this will not be achieved by bombing them flat, hence the slow circumspection of the operation.
The far right brigades, such as Right Sector and the Azov Brigade, now incorporated into the Ukrainian army are some of the best equipped and are deliberately deployed in areas such as Kharkov and nearby regions.
The Russian objective, it seems quite clear is to destroy these units without causing significant collateral damage. It will be slow work, but Russia has no need to rush.
I think the near total lack of combat footage and Ukrainian military casualty figures supports this assessment.

2) This is clearly not a full Invasion of Ukraine as all the activity is taking place in those areas which are former Russian territories with Russian forming the majority of the population.
Even the Kiev operation looks as much part of a large encirclement along the banks the Dnieper River to completely isolate and then destroy the bulk of the Ukrainian army trapped in the resultant cauldron, assuming that most do not look to get out before the trap is closed.

3) If there is a subsequent offensive into central and Western Ukraine, this will be a repeat of the Georgian operation which simply destroyed military infrastructure before returning to Russian controlled territory.

4) The Eastern territories will not be classed as Ukraine and will be recognised as Independent republics, probably with a view to incorporation into the Russian Federation. The rump of actual Ukraine will be left unoccupied.

5) Take quick hit sanctions to which they can stand, roll with and recover from equally quickly, while pilling on long term pain on EU via massive refugee crisis, possibly escalated by full energy embargoe.

Yes these are simply my guesses, but I think they reflect reality far closer then the mindless rubbish put out by the British Bullshit Corp and others.
Some of its blatant propaganda has been utterly ridiculous and actually insulting if we are expected to believe it.

[cromwell]

Anonymous are getting people to leave comments on restaurant reviews on Putin and the war in order to get around censorship.

https://twitter.com/YourAnonNews?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1498337491056836610%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

[Scott777]

I hope sense prevails and Ukraine regains it's place as an independent nation.

If it's neutral, and not being flooded with arms as part of NATO, that might be fine.  But is that the plan?

[Scott777]

Most of us know that man is in the wrong. And if someone down the road did it twenty years ago it makes no difference. And Putin, just like that man , has no excuse.

Maybe not a right, or an excuse, but still a reason.  A bear doesn't need a right to rip your head off.  Nor does it need to be excused.  It just needs a reason.  It seems to be to defend the threat of NATO, which is exactly as expected.

[johnofgwent]

Well John a mate of my old man's did just that and they were targeted as commies or commie sympathisers,he did though however when ww2 broke out prove very useful then in Norway where he was organising the resistance.

I was told the Anti Fascists made it rather hard to join them. But this was when I was a kid, hearing from my grandparents generation. Orwell had quite a few problems he wrote of in his Homage To Catalonia

https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2015/feb/25/brits-abroad-against-law-fight-isis

Edit: free haircuts ? Bloody smart cut and paste crap app ...

[cromwell]

I somehow doubt that Joe.