“Protocol continues to cause significant issues for medicine supplies” Cameron

[Barry]

No I'll convert and join the [highlight]blind deaf [/highlight]Brexit is great cult.
If people stop claiming made up stuff, I'd have nothing to refute. That would show me, wouldn't it. Or would you prefer if we all just agreed that brexit has been a swimmingly jolly good event and theres nothing bad about it.

Well, Gerry, we've been called thick, Neanderthals, knuckle draggers, gammons, xenophobes, racists, so blind and deaf cultist won't hurt. With apologies, of course to the Helen Keller International foundation.

[Thomas]

No I'll convert and join the blind deaf Brexit is great cult.
If people stop claiming made up stuff, I'd have nothing to refute. That would show me, wouldn't it. Or would you prefer if we all just agreed that brexit has been a swimmingly jolly good event and theres nothing bad about it.

Gerry , im desperate for you to talk about something new on brexit , events in northern ireland , irish politics or anything. Always interested in some thing new.

...but if all you are going to do is regurgitate the same old arguments remian lost convincingly then what is the point? No one agree with you , we have been over and under this and twisted arguments inside out , and there are only so many ways of rearguing the same thing over and over.

The trouble you have gerry is first of all you were getting ready to throw more project fear at brexit once the uk finally left , then covid took the wind out your sails . Now we have the russian ukraine war. Peoples attention is focused on these new events while you are waffling on about many of the issues from years ago. No one is interested.

Project fear and brexit bad has been a tactical disaster for remain lets be honest. Its the boy who cried wolf now , even when brexit does harm the uk economy , no one is listening because they have heard it all before and dont believe you.

Just my take on things.

[GerryT]

Hope so gerry. Another nail in the "rejoin" coffin i would think.

Have you anything new to say on brexit , or are you just going to continue being the pub bore and regurgitating brexit bad project fear scaremongering indefinetly?

No I'll convert and join the blind deaf Brexit is great cult.
If people stop claiming made up stuff, I'd have nothing to refute. That would show me, wouldn't it. Or would you prefer if we all just agreed that brexit has been a swimmingly jolly good event and theres nothing bad about it.

[Thomas]

  This may very well trigger a EU army, wouldn't that be great.

Hope so gerry. Another nail in the "rejoin" coffin i would think.

Have you anything new to say on brexit , or are you just going to continue being the pub bore and regurgitating brexit bad project fear scaremongering indefinetly?

[Streetwalker]

[T00ts]

No can't be true Gerry nobody ignored th butter mountains at all.

   

[cromwell]

There is a war, not that most countries around the world are doing much about it...yet.  This may very well trigger a EU army, wouldn't that be great. But lets park that until we see how things pan out. But if we do get an army I hope they don't run into Ukraine and then as you suggest days later run away leaving all their guns, tanks and bombs behind them.
But seriously, the only end to this is political, any talk of an armed response will see nukes flying into all major cities in Europe, then nobody wins.  And when I say political I mean cripple their economy as best we can.
I never whinged about remain losing a vote, more makey-upey stuff from yourself. All I do is try show the head in the clouds people the reality of Brexit, but no matter how often their shown fats they chose to totally ignore it

No can't be true Gerry nobody ignored th butter mountains at all. 

[GerryT]

Very interesting Im sure but VAT in general is not what we are discussing . Your article doesn't cover is the single energy market  on  the Island of Ireland

EU VAT Electricity Misc Regulation in NI – Brexit – An Irish Guide (brexitlegal.ie)

Nope my point stands. Ni is coupled with Ireland for the supply of Electricity and Gas. The VAT your talking about is regarding cross border trade between NI and Ireland. If NI were to get all it's Electricity and Gas supplies from GB (which is totally feasible) then NI will follow fully UK VAT rules and if Johnson reduces VAT to zero then NI people will pay Zero.

What you are talking about is the use of Electricity and Gas in NI from the Ireland networks, which they do use at the moment. These follow the directive you linked, from that we have


The last couple of words "trading in wholesale electricity or cross-border exchanges.." I could search through the docs to find the same repeated for Gas but I can't be bothered, it's in there.

The conversation was in response to a claim that the UK couldn't reduce UK VAT because of the EU. I showed that to be false, and even after your slant the point still stands.
If NI wants to use Irelands Gas or Electricity then there is a different approach required.

But lets be clear, that different approach was agreed by your Govt. Johnson. This is his oven ready deal, lucky that he's a details man.

[Streetwalker]

What I see is the UK saying the VAT can't be reduced because of the NI protocol and the EU, that's why I think it's the UK Govt using the EU as a scapegoat for not reducing VAT, they have form for doing this. There was an EU myths web page that listed thousands of these false claims, unfortunately that was taken down and no longer available, otherwise you would see thousands of examples. WHy do you think the UK people hate the EU so much, they've been fed this died for decades.

You didn't read the article then, he's some screen shots of the relevant bits.





Following the NI link on that document, this shows that UK domestic VAT rates apply to UK-GB and GB-UK goods and services, so you can set a 0% vat on what you want and that applies in NI and GB, the full UK:

https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/vat-news/brexit-northern-ireland-vat-and-eoro--xi--number.html






Unless you read where the UK is tied to EU vat rules, where was that ?

Very interesting Im sure but VAT in general is not what we are discussing . Your article doesn't cover is the single energy market  on  the Island of Ireland 

EU VAT Electricity Misc Regulation in NI – Brexit – An Irish Guide (brexitlegal.ie)

[GerryT]

Not quite sure where your trying to go Gerry . Your own link backs up what I have been trying to get across . That N Ireland is in a special customs and VAT agreement following EU rules . Which means no the UK can not set 0% VAT across the whole of the UK .

Thats not what was promised though . What was is that VAT would be taken off energy bills .

UK politicians lie all the time but they are not blaming the EU for this they are hiding behind the economy . The factseu link was questioning why they were blaming economics when it was more likely the VAT regime agreed for N Ireland was the problem . The government didn't fancy it kicking off when the N Irish found out they would be the only Brits paying the VAT .

What I see is the UK saying the VAT can't be reduced because of the NI protocol and the EU, that's why I think it's the UK Govt using the EU as a scapegoat for not reducing VAT, they have form for doing this. There was an EU myths web page that listed thousands of these false claims, unfortunately that was taken down and no longer available, otherwise you would see thousands of examples. WHy do you think the UK people hate the EU so much, they've been fed this died for decades.

You didn't read the article then, he's some screen shots of the relevant bits.





Following the NI link on that document, this shows that UK domestic VAT rates apply to UK-GB and GB-UK goods and services, so you can set a 0% vat on what you want and that applies in NI and GB, the full UK:

https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/vat-news/brexit-northern-ireland-vat-and-eoro--xi--number.html 






Unless you read where the UK is tied to EU vat rules, where was that ?

[Streetwalker]

As it turns out I was wrong, but not the way you think. I have a question for you at the end and I'd appreciate an honest answer.

According to the attached, which looks reputable, the UK since the end of transition has total control of its VAT rates. If it wants to lower VAT rates to Zero it can, the NI situation doesn't change that. So goods and services transactions GB-NI and NI-GB are as per UK VAT rates. If the UK wants to set VAT to 0% on everything it can, but as 30% of UK tax receipts are VAT, it's very doubtful that will happen.

https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/vat-news/uk-to-leave-eu-vat-regime-31-dec-20200.html

So now knowing that the UK can set 0% VAT rates across the full UK, or even if you don't accept it, but for the sake of this question you do. What do you think of your politicians trotting out the line that the promised VAT reductions won't happen because of the EU bla bla bla.. It's been proven that UK politicians have done this for decades, blame the EU on domestic issues, so why do you think it would change ?

Not quite sure where your trying to go Gerry . Your own link backs up what I have been trying to get across . That N Ireland is in a special customs and VAT agreement following EU rules . Which means no the UK can not set 0% VAT across the whole of the UK . 

Thats not what was promised though . What was is that VAT would be taken off energy bills . 

UK politicians lie all the time but they are not blaming the EU for this they are hiding behind the economy . The factseu link was questioning why they were blaming economics when it was more likely the VAT regime agreed for N Ireland was the problem . The government didn't fancy it kicking off when the N Irish found out they would be the only Brits paying the VAT .

[GerryT]

The Tories didn't promise to reduce VAT to 5% they promised to abolish it altogether which I repeat they can not do for the whole of the UK so they are not  doing it for any of it. 

As it turns out I was wrong, but not the way you think. I have a question for you at the end and I'd appreciate an honest answer.

According to the attached, which looks reputable, the UK since the end of transition has total control of its VAT rates. If it wants to lower VAT rates to Zero it can, the NI situation doesn't change that. So goods and services transactions GB-NI and NI-GB are as per UK VAT rates. If the UK wants to set VAT to 0% on everything it can, but as 30% of UK tax receipts are VAT, it's very doubtful that will happen.

https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/vat-news/uk-to-leave-eu-vat-regime-31-dec-20200.html

So now knowing that the UK can set 0% VAT rates across the full UK, or even if you don't accept it, but for the sake of this question you do. What do you think of your politicians trotting out the line that the promised VAT reductions won't happen because of the EU bla bla bla.. It's been proven that UK politicians have done this for decades, blame the EU on domestic issues, so why do you think it would change ?

[Streetwalker]

I was responding to Streetwalker who linked this

https://facts4eu.org/news/2022_feb_eu_deal_day#

There's a claim in there that the reason Sunak didn't cut the VAT on energy bills was because of NI and the EU.  I pointed out this was a lie, not that I think Sunak blamed the EU, but that the BrexitFacts link had made it up. I hear you shudder, nobody in the UK would falsely blame the EU on something.  The UK energy VAT rate is 20%, if Sunak wanted to reduce the VAT by 5% (as promised) then he can or could, no EU restriction.

You have introduced "exhaustive list" which is something I'm not aware of. But it's not what was being discussed. So what is this "exhaustive list".

The Tories didn't promise to reduce VAT to 5% they promised to abolish it altogether which I repeat they can not do for the whole of the UK so they are not  doing it for any of it.  

[GerryT]

Gerry there is a war going on , and you are still whinging about brexit. Shouldnt you be out organising a european army to practice running backwards or something?

There is a war, not that most countries around the world are doing much about it...yet.  This may very well trigger a EU army, wouldn't that be great. But lets park that until we see how things pan out. But if we do get an army I hope they don't run into Ukraine and then as you suggest days later run away leaving all their guns, tanks and bombs behind them.
But seriously, the only end to this is political, any talk of an armed response will see nukes flying into all major cities in Europe, then nobody wins.  And when I say political I mean cripple their economy as best we can.

I tell you , the planet could be close to getting burnt to a cinder ,and you will still be whinging on about losing a vote.

I never whinged about remain losing a vote, more makey-upey stuff from yourself. All I do is try show the head in the clouds people the reality of Brexit, but no matter how often their shown fats they chose to totally ignore it

[Thomas]

I was responding to Streetwalker who linked this

https://facts4eu.org/news/2022_feb_eu_deal_day#

There's a claim in there that the reason Sunak didn't cut the VAT on energy bills was because of NI and the EU.  I pointed out this was a lie, not that I think Sunak blamed the EU, but that the BrexitFacts link had made it up. I hear you shudder, nobody in the UK would falsely blame the EU on something.  The UK energy VAT rate is 20%, if Sunak wanted to reduce the VAT by 5% (as promised) then he can or could, no EU restriction.

You have introduced "exhaustive list" which is something I'm not aware of. But it's not what was being discussed. So what is this "exhaustive list".

Gerry there is a war going on , and you are still whinging about brexit. Shouldnt you be out organising a european army to practice running backwards or something?

I tell you , the planet could be close to getting burnt to a cinder ,and you will still be whinging on about losing a vote.