What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[Good old]

If peace wasn't a priority for Russia, ask yourself why are they drafting up a peace deal with Ukraine as I type? You're too one dimensional in your thought processes Good Old. You really do just accept everything you are told and not to question it. If we were in the Star Wars universe you'll be easy pickings for the Jedi Mind trick. The truth is the reason for this war isn't so one sided. East Ukraine is pro Russian, hence the civil war. We could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble by dividing the country up in 2014. As it was we had the Minsk Agreement. Part of that was to have more representation in Donbass regional government which didn't happen and Russia described that as a violation. There was mass killings of Russian speaking people in Donbass and shallow graves in 2014 hence the conflict there and accusations of genocide which is ironic given that is now what you seem to have your knickers in a twist over in reverse in regards to Bucha. Second the Azov Battalion are neo Nazis. Those three things alone makes a peace keeping mission to some extent justifiable. Put in NATO expansion and that nobody was appreciating the Russian POV and invasion to some extent makes sense. And that isn't to say I agree with the war because I support sovereignty but merely pointing out that the invasion didn't need to take place at all had the West acted differently or the Ukrainian government didn't recruit Nazis or that genocide claims were taken seriously back in 2014.

One dimensional on my thinking on this,  not at all  the excuses you give, for Russia, and it's military  have been part of my thoughts but knowing their reasons and accepting what use that reasoning has been put to is not at all the same. I would never make a reference to Star Wars if I wanted to survive as long as I have and the situations I have known.
There is nothing in a twist about me , I am not a pacifist, or completely anti-war , atrocities don't not shock me, sorry to say.
The only peace Putin wants is when he is given his every demand. If he wanted peace he has f—ked up big time .
He doesn't want peace he wants at least a big slice of Ukraine with or without peace.
Donbas, is a border dispute, a vehicle to extend the Russian boundary, allied to its claims on Crimea. Casualties on both sides, with Russian ,claims as ever unsubstantiated massively complicated with little green men.
The Azov battalion, is no threat to Russia, outside of Ukraine,  and no worse than the mercenary arseholes Putin, boosts of. If NATO expansion was a problem, it has to be more of a worry for him now, if he hasn't proved the point of NATO he never will. The war didn't need to happen if , every body , mainly Ukraine, just rolled over and said please don't invade me. The Mayor and his family might have survived if they to had rolled over.
My one dimension is ,Russia, Putin, is old fashioned out of order. If it's peace he wants get back out and start talking again. Militarily he could prevail, but only with huge loses, and the prize a festering sore.

[cromwell]

Of course, which is why I am sparing with the links I post, try to establish facts from multiple sources before posting and avoid reacting to the latest headline.
I try whenever possible to find links that have clear and indisputable context. I like Patrick Lancaster for this reason. He is on the ground, he shows plenty of context and he does no editing of the interviews he does with the people he talks to, in situ.

I would rather listen to someone in Mariupol talking about their experience, rather than someone claiming to have been in Mariupol, speaking perfect English while in Lvov! or interviews in Russian that are heavily edited and misleadingly translated.

Yes, I know. you will now trawl back and find a link I posted that is less than stellar in its accuracy or credibility. Never claimed to be perfect Cromwell.

No I wont.....and neither am I.

[Sampanviking]

Never said it's all been substantiated........yet,and if there is an info war that goes for all your links too doesn't it?

Of course, which is why I am sparing with the links I post, try to establish facts from multiple sources before posting and avoid reacting to the latest headline.
I try whenever possible to find links that have clear and indisputable context. I like Patrick Lancaster for this reason. He is on the ground, he shows plenty of context and he does no editing of the interviews he does with the people he talks to, in situ.

I would rather listen to someone in Mariupol talking about their experience, rather than someone claiming to have been in Mariupol, speaking perfect English while in Lvov! or interviews in Russian that are heavily edited and misleadingly translated.

Yes, I know. you will now trawl back and find a link I posted that is less than stellar in its accuracy or credibility. Never claimed to be perfect Cromwell.

[cromwell]

Females have taken arms too Cromwell, but until there is an investigation I don't believe we should just take Ukraines word for everything anyway. That isn't to say I think these are false flags claims, only that these 'females' could have taking up arms also that is if the claim you made is true it should be said as I haven't read that. The only female grave I have heard of was a Mayor.

As for the apartment block bombing  everyone had already be evacuated so it was empty. Seems a strange target to go for given it was empty if the aim was to kill civilians Cromwell. Given the angle of the missle and where it landed and that it didn't take down the building and that it was the only missle fired at it, this suggest that the missle missed its target Cromwell. Even the best missles on the planet can go off target and hit residential buildings. Ask the Iraqis.

I haven't.....I said apparently.

[cromwell]

Mod Notice


Your post Sheepy has been removed ....

personal attack,disagree all you like  but please desist in just posting insults

[B0ycey]

So all the apartment buildings with civilians in
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ukraine-conflict-kyiv-residential-buildings-hit-by-russian-strikes-3611429
not the BBC and we're all those apartment blocks storing weapons too?

Females have taken arms too Cromwell, but until there is an investigation I don't believe we should just take Ukraines word for everything anyway. That isn't to say I think these are false flags claims, only that these 'females' could have taking up arms also that is if the claim you made is true it should be said as I haven't read that. The only female grave I have heard of was a Mayor.

As for the apartment block bombing  everyone had already be evacuated so it was empty. Seems a strange target to go for given it was empty if the aim was to kill civilians Cromwell. Given the angle of the missle and where it landed and that it didn't take down the building and that it was the only missle fired at it, this suggest that the missle missed its target Cromwell. Even the best missles on the planet can go off target and hit residential buildings. Ask the Iraqis.

[DeppityDawg]

Your post intrigues me. Are you always non partisan or just in this instance? Is that because there is wrong and right on both sides in all wars or just some of them?

Sorry Toots. I'd like to answer your question, but I think the thread has now passed into emotional reactions and I'm not prepared to take any further part. 

[Sheepy]

As for separating countries, how much do you know about Yugoslavia?

Same as you until I pointed it out, although of course that time we were the knights in shining armour, so to speak. 

[cromwell]

You said it yourself Cromwell "by account" "apparently" i.e. Heresay and Allegation, all of it Unsubstantiated but amplified by a rabidly partisan media, in a Propaganda Information War which has gone of the scale and left descriptors such as "Hysterical" and "Ridiculous" far far behind.
All we know fir sure is that they found the bodies of young men in a warzone. That's it.

Never said it's all been substantiated........yet,and if there is an info war that goes for all your links too doesn't it?

[B0ycey]

First off it isn't up to us to go separating up countries,secondly Czechoslovakia was separated by the Munich agreement and how did that work out?

Well I never said Ukraine should be separated only that if it was, most of the problems we have with the country would go away. You think all of Ukraine is anti Russia or something?

As for separating countries, how much do you know about Yugoslavia? Do you think we have a right to separate Serbia from say, I don't know, let's say Bosnia, against the will of say the elected leader, let's call him Milosevic. The truth is sometimes to protect one lot of people from another is to created separate states Cromwell. Europe isn't the Holy Roman Empire any more. It has split itself into loads of smaller countries. I fail to see why Ukraine should be regarded differently because the people who were the minority were Russian supporting.

[Sampanviking]

You said it yourself Cromwell "by account" "apparently" i.e. Heresay and Allegation, all of it Unsubstantiated but amplified by a rabidly partisan media, in a Propaganda Information War which has gone of the scale and left descriptors such as "Hysterical" and "Ridiculous" far far behind.
All we know fir sure is that they found the bodies of young men in a warzone. That's it.

[cromwell]

How is it moving the goalposts. No male was allowed to leave the country and was ordered to take arms. Anyone left in Ukraine was almost certainly taking arms and firing back. Most of the civilians still left in Ukraine are either old or female. The numbers of dead don't add up to mass killings. They seem to suggest targeted killings. And my instinct is they were POWs given when Ukrainians held protested in occupied towns  they were by and large left to do that hence why I said Russia haven't targeted civilians. Specific targets like the mall and hospital was because arms were stored there. Cromwell you are better than this. Have you ever thought to read up on stories you see on the BBC to get more back story?

So all the apartment buildings with civilians in
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ukraine-conflict-kyiv-residential-buildings-hit-by-russian-strikes-3611429
not the BBC and we're all those apartment blocks storing weapons too?

And as you said most left we're old or civilians so why were naked females found dead?

[Sheepy]

If peace wasn't a priority for Russia, ask yourself why are they drafting up a peace deal with Ukraine as I type? You're too one dimensional in your thought processes Good Old. You really do just accept everything you are told and not to question it. If we were in the Star Wars universe you'll be easy pickings for the Jedi Mind trick. The truth is the reason for this war isn't so one sided. East Ukraine is pro Russian, hence the civil war. We could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble by dividing the country up in 2014. As it was we had the Minsk Agreement. Part of that was to have more representation in Donbass regional government which didn't happen and Russia described that as a violation. There was mass killings of Russian speaking people in Donbass and shallow graves in 2014 hence the conflict there and accusations of genocide which is ironic given that is now what you seem to have your knickers in a twist over in reverse in regards to Bucha. Second the Azov Battalion are neo Nazis. Those three things alone makes a peace keeping mission to some extent justifiable. Put in NATO expansion and that nobody was appreciating the Russian POV and invasion to some extent makes sense. And that isn't to say I agree with the war because I support sovereignty but merely pointing out that the invasion didn't need to take place at all had the West acted differently or the Ukrainian government didn't recruit Nazis or that genocide claims were taken seriously back in 2014.

Very much true always two sides to every story Boycey, without doubt there has been a lot of interference from outside influence in Ukraine. 

[cromwell]

We could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble by dividing the country up in 2014. 

First off it isn't up to us to go separating up countries,secondly Czechoslovakia was separated by the Munich agreement and how did that work out?

[B0ycey]

Right so first you say don't target civilians and then when civilians were a target you move the goalposts,they all apparently had limbs broken before they were killed.

How is it moving the goalposts. No male was allowed to leave the country and was ordered to take arms. Anyone left in Ukraine was almost certainly taking arms and firing back. Most of the civilians still left in Ukraine are either old or female. The numbers of dead don't add up to mass killings. They seem to suggest targeted killings. And my instinct is they were POWs given when Ukrainians held protested in occupied towns  they were by and large left to do that hence why I said Russia haven't targeted civilians. Specific targets like the mall and hospital was because arms were stored there. Cromwell you are better than this. Have you ever thought to read up on stories you see on the BBC to get more back story?