What is really happening in the Ukraine Conflict?

[Thomas]

One of my biggest beefs with the BBC and MSM media in general is to do with maps, because if a major news organisation, can't get a map reasonably accurate, they are not competent and if they are deliberately getting it wrong, then they are down right deceitful

Dont talk to anyone in scotland sampan about bbc maps. Its a running joke and has been for years about bbc weather maps  , when they show scotland the size of sussex and england much larger than it actually is.

Aye i would say  they are deliberately getting maps wrong and deliberately being deceitfull.

[Thomas]

Perhaps being the hegemony, it is clear the US dictate the terms Thomas. But this is a European war and in some sense I get the impression the Americans are more than happy to let this play out aggressively given they are a ocean away and aren't dealing with the refugees and the reason Biden was corrected yesterday was because the current approach going on is set by Europe which are sanctions not aggressive rhetoric. So in that sense I don't agree that Europe are being strung along here. Eastern Europe especially want us to do more in Ukraine and there isn't a politician in the continent that won't use the 'Russia is wrong' line to please their voter audience and it is difficult to find any media outlet that wants to talk about denazification nor Russian security concerns in the West. How exactly is anyone to understand what is going on when you are being fed half the story? But I wanted to reply to you, not so much on who is the bigger beast in this war or whether Europe are basically swallowing the American geopolitical narrative. I agree nobody on here can understand everything that is going on, but you can make sense to some extent by actions and words given to you and thinking logically for what they mean. My instinct was that the West initially wanted Ukraine to fall and Zelensky gave us a curveball by actually being a leader. I only say that because Russia was doing training exercises around Ukraine, the 200,000 troops they had were never going to be enough to occupy Ukraine and we kept telling Russia that we wouldn't intervene if they attacked. When all that was going on we were telling Russia to get over their security concerns and sabotaging dialogue. What happened next was an invasion because what else could happen. Was that the plan? We may never know. But what we do know is it was literally the only time Russia could invade with firm ground and we weren't doing anything to stop them invading. So in that sense I expect it was the plan initially.  The Yanks then said to Zelensky they would get him out and ultimately him turned them  down right at the start of the war. That doesn't make any sense unless you wanted Ukraine to fall, keep a leader in the wings spouting sovereignty and hope to Ukrainians and at the same time have Russia deal with insurgents which in turn would keep them preoccupied for the foreseeable future. If Ukraine was to fall it would also address the ultimate problem which is a country divided. The sanctions initially were weak. They didn't cut Russia off Swift. The reason we continue to put on sanctions isn't for our benefit but to keep Zelensky happy because we still think this war is possible for him to win. They can't win, but they can draw I guess. But until Ukraine address the cause of the war, it will continue.

Not sure i agree with all that boycey , but i hear what you are saying.

Regarding the yanks saying to zelensky about getting him out , to me thats nothing more than outright propaganda to portray zelensky as some sort of hero  , a captain standing by his sinking ship.

What sort of leader of any country would do a runner when his nation is being invaded? If he did , how damaging would that be to morale? No i dont buy that at all boycey.

Like i said before , american regime change has finally swept through africa , asia central and south america and now landed on our doorstep with the predictable consequences.

Only this time , its almost in direct confrontation with the worlds second most powerfull military and nuclear power.

[Sampanviking]

One of my biggest beefs with the BBC and MSM media in general is to do with maps, because if a major news organisation, can't get a map reasonably accurate, they are not competent and if they are deliberately getting it wrong, then they are down right deceitful

In the South, the BBC is still showing the small city (or large town) of Volnovakha very clearly within Ukraine controlled territory, control which extends for over fifty miles from Volnovakha all the way down to Mariupol itself with only a very small bridge head to the North of Mariupol isolating the city from the rest of Ukrainian territory. The other map, shows a that a wide band of about eighty miles deep extends from the Crimea to the the DPR under Russian/DPR control.

Which one is right
Well first off - here is Patrick on the 11th March in Volnovakha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V0ygeTGh7k

Pretty conclusive that the town changed hands two weeks ago and matches a lot of accounts of many Ukrainian forces from this front falling all the way back to Mariupol itself.

The BBC map seems to exist only to promote the narrative of the Russians not advancing and not achieving any success and high casualties etc.
The Mariupol story stands this on its head all by itself. For two weeks, some 10-15 thousand of the Ukraine's best troops were encircled in the city. Bur according to the BBC map, territory controlled by another force of up to 60,000 of the Ukraine's best equipped and battle hardened troops was just a couple of miles away?
So why couldn't they break the siege? Could they not spare another 10,000 to head south and smash the the Russian bridgehead?
We are told that Russia has not achieved Air Superiority in the Ukraine? so where has the Ukrainian air force been? No recorded air strikes against Russian/DPR forces in this entire time?
None either against the 40 mile column that sat north of Kiev for about 10 days. No airstrikes, no long range artillery strikes against a priority target closest to the most secure Ukrainian territory in the West. The Same story to the South around Kherson? (They did manage some artillery here at least).

Yesterday the Ukrainian government were boasting that due to trophy captures, they had more tanks now than when the war started. Today however, Zelenskyy has been begging Europe for literally any type of weapon that "they don't need".

Dodgy maps supporting dodgy reporting in the support of a dodgy narrative and making suckers of us all.
The reality is Mariupol is all but over (which is why is not dominating the press anymore) what is left of the Azov Diehards are now in the Azov Steel works and are being slowly erased.
No help was forthcoming as the Donbass force are pinned down and had no chance of breaking through nearly 100 miles of heavily contested Russian/DPR territory from Donetsk to the Coast.
There were no airstrikes as any airforce that the Ukraine may still have only operates around Lvov
If the video clips of Ukrainian airstrikes have dried up, the Russian ones have not with a multitude released daily showing strikes on Donbas Armour, artillery, fuel, ammunition dumps etc.

Zelenskyy may be winning the media war, but the magical illusion he is creating can only be sustained for so long, before hard reality brings it all crashing down and shown for the empty duplicitous sham, it all has been.

[B0ycey]

The relatively simple matter of the Donbass could have been sorted out quite painlessly through implementing the terms of the Minsk Agreement, which together with Treated Neutrality for the Ukraine, would have meant no war at all.
Now to many red lines have been crossed, the sanctions, the human shields in the East, Belgrade Biden calling for Regime Change  etc etc. Russia has effectively paid for its adventure and has nothing to lose by getting full value for money. To me that means everything East of the Dnieper and all of the Coast. In other words all the Majority Russian speaking areas.

I can't say I know much about it. From my understanding Ukraine by and large kept to their side of the divide. Besides, it is true the Russians have mentioned that the Minsk agreement was being violated, but they haven't explained how. Or if they have, I haven't read it. But even so, my opinion is this war was more a consequence of not addressing their security concerns than the Minsk Agreement.

[Sampanviking]

I think for Russia, they are just concerned for Luhansk and Donatsk not all of Ukraine. I think most of this can be sorted with power sharing and not splitting the country up in any case. But that is something that can only be sorted out in talks between Russia and Ukraine.

The relatively simple matter of the Donbass could have been sorted out quite painlessly through implementing the terms of the Minsk Agreement, which together with Treated Neutrality for the Ukraine, would have meant no war at all.
Now to many red lines have been crossed, the sanctions, the human shields in the East, Belgrade Biden calling for Regime Change  etc etc. Russia has effectively paid for its adventure and has nothing to lose by getting full value for money. To me that means everything East of the Dnieper and all of the Coast. In other words all the Majority Russian speaking areas.

[B0ycey]

There was a map put out by a Polish TV station that was published on Twitter a couple of days ago and removed within an hour. It showed East and South Ukraine as part of Russia, a small rump Ukraine around Kiev in the center and all of Western Ukraine as part of Poland. I hope people kept a copy somewhere, if they did and I find it, I will post it.

I think for Russia, they are just concerned for Luhansk and Donatsk not all of Ukraine. I think most of this can be sorted with power sharing and not splitting the country up in any case. But that is something that can only be sorted out in talks between Russia and Ukraine.

[Sampanviking]

Perhaps being the hegemony, it is clear the US dictate the terms Thomas. But this is a European war and in some sense I get the impression the Americans are more than happy to let this play out aggressively given they are a ocean away and aren't dealing with the refugees and the reason Biden was corrected yesterday was because the current approach going on is set by Europe which are sanctions not aggressive rhetoric. So in that sense I don't agree that Europe are being strung along here. Eastern Europe especially want us to do more in Ukraine and there isn't a politician in the continent that won't use the 'Russia is wrong' line to please their voter audience and it is difficult to find any media outlet that wants to talk about denazification nor Russian security concerns in the West. How exactly is anyone to understand what is going on when you are being fed half the story? But I wanted to reply to you, not so much on who is the bigger beast in this war or whether Europe are basically swallowing the American geopolitical narrative. I agree nobody on here can understand everything that is going on, but you can make sense to some extent by actions and words given to you and thinking logically for what they mean. My instinct was that the West initially wanted Ukraine to fall and Zelensky gave us a curveball by actually being a leader. I only say that because Russia was doing training exercises around Ukraine, the 200,000 troops they had were never going to be enough to occupy Ukraine and we kept telling Russia that we wouldn't intervene if they attacked. When all that was going on we were telling Russia to get over their security concerns and sabotaging dialogue. What happened next was an invasion because what else could happen. Was that the plan? We may never know. But what we do know is it was literally the only time Russia could invade with firm ground and we weren't doing anything to stop them invading. So in that sense I expect it was the plan initially.  The Yanks then said to Zelensky they would get him out and ultimately him turned them  down right at the start of the war. That doesn't make any sense unless you wanted Ukraine to fall, keep a leader in the wings spouting sovereignty and hope to Ukrainians and at the same time have Russia deal with insurgents which in turn would keep them preoccupied for the foreseeable future. If Ukraine was to fall it would also address the ultimate problem which is a country divided. The sanctions initially were weak. They didn't cut Russia off Swift. The reason we continue to put on sanctions isn't for our benefit but to keep Zelensky happy because we still think this war is possible for him to win. They can't win, but they can draw I guess. But until Ukraine address the cause of the war, it will continue.

There was a map put out by a Polish TV station that was published on Twitter a couple of days ago and removed within an hour. It showed East and South Ukraine as part of Russia, a small rump Ukraine around Kiev in the center and all of Western Ukraine as part of Poland. I hope people kept a copy somewhere, if they did and I find it, I will post it.

[B0ycey]

I hear what you are saying boycey , but this sentence needs looked at more closely.

The "west" enacted them to me translates as the USA ordered sanctions and their vassall states reluctantly obeyed. That is the nub of the issue here i think. There is massive discomfort around europe with the way the yanks are behaving. The yanks themselves were massively discomforted by europe trading with russia.
Again , neither i nor anyone else on this forum are experts on this matter , but clearly from what little im reading , any attempts to open dialogue have been scuppered by the yanks.

Perhaps being the hegemony, it is clear the US dictate the terms Thomas. But this is a European war and in some sense I get the impression the Americans are more than happy to let this play out aggressively given they are a ocean away and aren't dealing with the refugees and the reason Biden was corrected yesterday was because the current approach going on is set by Europe which are sanctions not aggressive rhetoric. So in that sense I don't agree that Europe are being strung along here. Eastern Europe especially want us to do more in Ukraine and there isn't a politician in the continent that won't use the 'Russia is wrong' line to please their voter audience and it is difficult to find any media outlet that wants to talk about denazification nor Russian security concerns in the West. How exactly is anyone to understand what is going on when you are being fed half the story? But I wanted to reply to you, not so much on who is the bigger beast in this war or whether Europe are basically swallowing the American geopolitical narrative. I agree nobody on here can understand everything that is going on, but you can make sense to some extent by actions and words given to you and thinking logically for what they mean. My instinct was that the West initially wanted Ukraine to fall and Zelensky gave us a curveball by actually being a leader. I only say that because Russia was doing training exercises around Ukraine, the 200,000 troops they had were never going to be enough to occupy Ukraine and we kept telling Russia that we wouldn't intervene if they attacked. When all that was going on we were telling Russia to get over their security concerns and sabotaging dialogue. What happened next was an invasion because what else could happen. Was that the plan? We may never know. But what we do know is it was literally the only time Russia could invade with firm ground and we weren't doing anything to stop them invading. So in that sense I expect it was the plan initially.  The Yanks then said to Zelensky they would get him out and ultimately him turned them  down right at the start of the war. That doesn't make any sense unless you wanted Ukraine to fall, keep a leader in the wings spouting sovereignty and hope to Ukrainians and at the same time have Russia deal with insurgents which in turn would keep them preoccupied for the foreseeable future. If Ukraine was to fall it would also address the ultimate problem which is a country divided. The sanctions initially were weak. They didn't cut Russia off Swift. The reason we continue to put on sanctions isn't for our benefit but to keep Zelensky happy because we still think this war is possible for him to win. They can't win, but they can draw I guess. But until Ukraine address the cause of the war, it will continue. 

[Thomas]

anyone know the latest to date on what happening with the killer of wee english boy harry dunn , and wether anne sacoolas is getting extradited to face the music in an english court while the USA demands julian assanges extradition?





Peter Hitchens in today's Mail on Sunday: We are poorly placed to condemn Russian censorship (while one of the most effective independent journalists of our time [Julian Assange] languishes in maximum security prison..though he has not been convicted of anything)

[Thomas]

I don't know if this is genuine or not, but the technology is real and at the very least is a great lampoon of the Green Screen that Zelenskyy has started using, wherever he may actually be.

https://twitter.com/shen_shiwei/status/1507206544173068290?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1507206544173068290%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinodefenceforum.com%2Ft%2Fukrainian-war-developments.8899%2Fpage-1617

[Thomas]

Thats the way its always been portrayed, Thomas. Because people polarise everything. What they support is "good", what they are against is "bad". Its the same in politics. All tories are scum etc

I remember one of the NCO courses included an "E&E" exercise (escape and evasion). Basically, they drop you in the middle of nowhere while a Company or so of seemingly hand picked retards with severe personality disorders try and hunt you down. If you get picked up, you get a f*cking sound kicking too. As the guy leading the course said, don't take it personally. This is nothing to what you'd get if it were for real.

Its said that if you are going to get killed, you are most likely to get killed in the first few minutes after surrender or capture. When everyones blood is up and adrenaline is through the roof. Plus, no one really knows who is dead, who is wounded, and who is about to drop a grenade from his hand. That "our side" always have the moral strength to overcome human weakness is a given, of course.

I dont think i have enough self discipline to behave "honourably" towards any prisoner of war  , having watched my mates getting killed and maimed around me , so im not condemning these ukrainians.

As you say , and i have said , these little polarising clips show there isnt good or bad on any side , its a complex issue , that the western media is trying and failing to portray as good v bad.

Just as many cunts among the ukrainians as the russians scottish or english or any other nation. So thats why im not joining in the chorus of ukrainian canonisation and russia condemnation.

I said before , and i say it again , i fully believe the ukrainians are getting a total using from our bestest bestest friends in washington. That country is going to be left a burnt out shell , probably split irretriveably in two , while america walks aways and washes its hands before turning to the next war project.

[Sampanviking]

I don't know if this is genuine or not, but the technology is real and at the very least is a great lampoon of the Green Screen that Zelenskyy has started using, wherever he may actually be.

https://twitter.com/shen_shiwei/status/1507206544173068290?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1507206544173068290%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinodefenceforum.com%2Ft%2Fukrainian-war-developments.8899%2Fpage-1617

[DeppityDawg]

I see george galloway has just posted a video on his twitter timeline of ukrainian soldiers shooting russian POWs in the legs and giving them a kicking. Not the nicest of things to witness , so im not posting it on here , but just goes to show in war like anything else there is no "good and bad " guys despite the canonisation the western media portray of zelensky and the ukrainians.

Thats the way its always been portrayed, Thomas. Because people polarise everything. What they support is "good", what they are against is "bad". Its the same in politics. All tories are scum etc

I remember one of the NCO courses included an "E&E" exercise (escape and evasion). Basically, they drop you in the middle of nowhere while a Company or so of seemingly hand picked retards with severe personality disorders try and hunt you down. If you get picked up, you get a f*cking sound kicking too. As the guy leading the course said, don't take it personally. This is nothing to what you'd get if it were for real.

Its said that if you are going to get killed, you are most likely to get killed in the first few minutes after surrender or capture. When everyones blood is up and adrenaline is through the roof. Plus, no one really knows who is dead, who is wounded, and who is about to drop a grenade from his hand. That "our side" always have the moral strength to overcome human weakness is a given, of course.

[Thomas]

sanctions.............

'Blood money': Ukrainian MP slams Sunak's wife for Russian operation

Rishi Sunak has been warned he has "very serious questions to answer" after it was revealed that his wife receives millions from her shareholdings in the IT and consultancy business Infosys.


Akshata Murthy owns a stake "worth hundreds of millions" in the company, founded by her father, which is still operating in Moscow despite the Chancellors pleas to businesses to stop trade in Russia.
Read more: Putin 'cannot remain in power': Biden sparks chaos as Kremlin hits back over Poland speech
"She maintains a stake of some £700 million plus which was declared the other day," Andrew Castle pointed out to Ukrainian MP Lesia Vasylenko.

"Any money that is put into the Russian economy in one way or the other, be it directly, be it through investment, be it through taxes...that money goes to sponsor the army."

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/andrew-castle/rishi-sunaks-wife-blood-money-in-russian-business-ukrainian-mp/

I tell you what auld dishy rishy seems to have fallen flat on his arse in recent months. Now he is getting grief about his wife receiving millions from a company operating in moscow.

[Thomas]

. The West enacted them and are now looking at ways to bypass them despite being the ones who ordered them.

I hear what you are saying boycey , but this sentence needs looked at more closely.

The "west" enacted them to me translates as the USA ordered sanctions and their vassall states reluctantly obeyed. That is the nub of the issue here i think. There is massive discomfort around europe with the way the yanks are behaving. The yanks themselves were massively discomforted by europe trading with russia.

I am beginning to think had we opened up dialogue up properly and addressed Russias security concerns, this war would be over by now.

Again , neither i nor anyone else on this forum are experts on this matter , but clearly from what little im reading , any attempts to open dialogue have been scuppered by the yanks.

Can you honestly believe forum member srb steve said to me a few weeks back ( cant remember which thread) that he didnt believe ukraine was an american proxy war with russia? Billions of dollars pumped into the country for war , american spcial forces training troops on the ground , regime change and puppets set up in ukraine , and of course the russians doing the same in the east of the country.

America says jump and the "west" says how high .

I only write that because when you see charts like that, it seems Russia are treating us as business as usual

So it seems , yet there are some on here who think "sanctions" work.

Will we ever learn that this story has two sides that need to be addressed and not ours alone?

Dont know boycey. I tell you what though , i was convinced the medias influence was waning over recent years , especially after 2014 / 15 , but i realise now with ukraine this is a mistake.
The power of the media is alive and well.